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 Gunnar's Colic again!!!

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~TC~



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PostSubject: Re: Gunnar's Colic again!!!   Wed May 13, 2009 9:31 am

Quote :
I had read somewhere that is key for their systems to obtain small amounts regularly rather than large amounts several times a day. Which I suppose the paddock paradise would create? I must read more on that.


Yes, this is just like that , actually it can be ANYthing you want it to be...
You can sprinkle hay on the tracks, or leave little piles here and there, their minerals can be placed in different spots, treats, etc.

The track can have sandy areas for rolling, wider secotions as loafing areas..(To stop and relax and nap), grassier areas, some with pea stones to massage their feet as they walk through...hills, gullies, water crossings, trees... Is your horse scared of mail boxes? Place one of those along the track somewhere... ! ;).... They will get over their little issues while you are away at work! lol The possibilties are endless as long as the land allows and your pocket book...lol
(Some folks get really fancy!)

Quote :
Two summers ago we tried leaving the horses out overnight and one of them ended up greeting the BO at her doorstep in the morning.. haha That was the end of that.
Hmmm...yes, escape artists would have to be contained in a well built fence.... (I have seen a 16 HH climb over stall doors and crawl under the bottom rails of fences..lol So I totally believe you...lol)
However, the PP I think, would keep them busy enough to not feel the need to leave... (Not usually anyway...)

Quote :
Also at my work we used to leave some horses with allergies or injuries outside overnight. They would have to come in during the day and rest in their stalls as they would be exhausted. HC can tell some good stories of her horse's overnight adventures on pasture. As well as my boss, she lives on property and sleeps with her window open and she said she could hear them goofing around in the middle of the night. Again these guys would have to come in for 'naps' during the day. Maybe our horses are just lazy or were not able to adjust to the lifestyle ? But it was interesting and most of the time entertaining.

Well yes, horses do stay VERY active...and given the reason, they will nap if brought inside... Creatures of habit get use to a schedule... and really, not much else to do in a stall besides eat and sleep...
Our horses are out 24/7 and at different times throughout they day, they stretch out and nap...even some really good REM sleep, but just 10 mins of that and they are up and going and refreshed... (I wish I could recoup that quick! Buggers...)

Just caught myself up yesterday on the Brumby Research going on in Austrailia. They are comparing domestic horses to the wild ones.. (how much they each travel, what they eat, the effects on their feet etc etc...by hooking GPS units up to them....VERY interesting results so far I must admit!... I am such a nerd... lol )

As quoted from http://hoofcare.blogspot.com/search?q=brumby

Fran Jurga's Hoof Blog:

Quote :
Maybe, it turns out, to understand a lot about hooves we need to learn to a little bit about behavior. “Never has the saying of ‘No Foot No Horse’ been more obvious, when you see how much these horses move,” Hampson says. “We have tracked the movement of domestic horses in a variety of settings from the racing environment (to) five-acre paddocks (and) up to 10,000 acre paddocks to see the variation of movement and it has been quite staggering. Old brood mares turned out in paddocks are moving more over a 24-hour period than our elite race horses."

WoW!

More about that research here: http://www.wildhorseresearch.com
Wild Hoorse Research

...(It just started March of 2008 so more to come!)

Quote :
He kind of has a one now, but it is not in the maze or lane type, it is just one large area with many interchanging areas. He has to walk down a hill and along a small path to get a drink of water in a running brook. lol .. Nothing I know to what a real paddock paradise is.

This sounds really awesome...!
The only difference is that without the REASON to move most of the day, they won't... So if their hay is piled up in one or two spot..that is where they will stay most of the day....not "moving while eating"... The "tracks" encourage it... the horses just keep going... and if the food sources, minerals and water etc, all spread out..... horses will travel! :)
Horses in the wild, follow the same tracks... over and over...anyone with large properties will notice this in their domestic horses.......


Quote :
hmm hey Wissy wonder if we could fence in that little hill beside their paddock, the one that looks like a table top?
Make a maze to the brook? Would that deter them from drinking offend?
Deter them from drinking? I would have to say no, for sure...


Quote :
My boss.. phf nope never gets the hay tested lol go figure eh? Totally fits the description you just said that the cow farmer said 100%.
I think they got it tested a long time ago but haven't done it in years.
I have been asking why they never got it tested and got the answer that because all the loads come from different fields and farmers they would have to test every load and never be able to have consistent results because it never comes from the same farmer. They are working on getting a contact with one farmer, so they get the same hay consistently.

In order to get a good average result of ALL the hay, it is suggested that you take core samples throughout the collection of bales... So as it is being loaded on the truck, or unloaded in the barn, if someone took a core sample of every 20th to 30th bale, from each field it came from, and threw all the samples together in a baggy, that is ONE test at about $25.00 total,.. (I am guessing on the cost but I think that is what I heard.) Unless she wanted to pick and choose what farmer she gets it from, she could keep her average samples seperate from each field/farmer. If one turns out really bad for horses, she can cut that one out the next year, or hope the farmer could improve his quality. (Could have been bad timing on the cut, bad weather...or it might have too much of one kind of plant in it, that is knocking the horse's vitamin/mineral ratios out of whack...)

Quote :
The barn were I rode out for my university team said they got all their hay tested, $20 a round bale. I think it was.

Yes, if they kept each bale seperate and sent them in as seperate tests..then that makes sense... but I would do every other or ever 4th or 5th round bale and put them all in the same baggy for an average result. :)

Just for fun.... Here is an EXTREME Paddock Paradise...this guy lives on a big rock..(Hello NFLD'ers! Take note! lol) and he made due with what he had to keep his horses stimulated, moving and healthy...

http://www.nakedhorsemanship.com/dancing%20barefoot.htm
Extreme PP

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Last edited by ~TC~ on Wed May 13, 2009 9:39 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Gunnar's Colic again!!!   Wed May 13, 2009 9:34 am

Link Not working TC
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PostSubject: Re: Gunnar's Colic again!!!   Wed May 13, 2009 9:40 am

(...Yeah, this is the second time the "link" button wouldn't work for me...

So it should now, I deleted that feature from my post..)

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PostSubject: Re: Gunnar's Colic again!!!   Wed May 13, 2009 12:27 pm

Naughty by Nature- I used to ride an Arab who had swollen glads by his throat and he ended up having a hypothyroid problem. Gunnar's glands are not swollen, I would notice that. But I'm sure a blood test wouldn't hurt.
The thing about Gunnar is that he is very smart and sneaky, he unfortunately chooses when to use his energy lol. Yesterday he was like a slug and today he was too but I reminded him about moving forward and he was MUCH better.


TC- Thanks.. I've got lots of reading ahead of me :)
The video was really neat! All the horses had awesome feet! Thanks for posting

I have a question about the paddock paradise. say you had a small group of horses and one of those horses was really alpha and bossed the others or one in particular around. With the lane system , if those horses had a conflict might one of those horses get in a tight spot and get injured?
At the stable I work at we often end up keeping almost all of the horses in separate paddocks becuase most of them do not get along and become dangerous to each other. Forcing us to make the paddocks smaller and smaller. 9 years ago the property consisted of many very large paddocks, now those 25 horses are in very small paddocks :x

Even when put on 2-3 arce pasture some horses STILL don't get along and well MorgansRgreat can tell you horror stories.
Maybe because I grew up around this atmosphere I am always thinking about the safety of a group of horses put out together.
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PostSubject: Re: Gunnar's Colic again!!!   Wed May 13, 2009 1:06 pm

Great conversation girls! I'm just getting a moment to respond to this now, its been SOOO nice outside the last couple of days....

Quote :
We did have him off grain for 1-2 weeks last summer because he coliced off rich hay. His energy level never came back up until he was back on grain. Plus the horse loses energy in the summertime when he is ON grain, if he were taken completely off grain ( which AS MENTIONED grain was not the problem) I personally have a feeling his energy level would decrease even more.
In my opinion and experience of transitioning horses off of grain, it takes longer then 1-2 weeks to even get the grain out of their systems. It takes a LONG time for them to 'detox'. I personally feel that grain is one of the biggest triggers of colic, maybe it wasn't related to Gunnar's epsiode but I believe it plays a role.

Quote :
Wissy and I have a friend who has 8+ Fjords and the paddock they are keep in is dirt .. it used to be grass. They have access to a small grass pasture during the summer. All her non fjord horses have similar large paddocks but theirs have remained grass.
Going back to what TC said about grasses being stressed during certain times of the day, etc. Keeping the Fjords in a grass paddock with little sprigs of stressed grass is more dangerous then keeping them in longer grass. Short, stressed grasses are higher in sugars.

Quote :
Two summers ago we tried leaving the horses out overnight and one of them ended up greeting the BO at her doorstep in the morning.. haha That was the end of that. How the horse got out is still a mystery, the gates and fencing were still intact!
If they escaped during the night, its possible they could escape the same way during the day?

Quote :
Also at my work we used to leave some horses with allergies or injuries outside overnight. They would have to come in during the day and rest in their stalls as they would be exhausted. HC can tell some good stories of her horse's overnight adventures on pasture. As well as my boss, she lives on property and sleeps with her window open and she said she could hear them goofing around in the middle of the night. Again these guys would have to come in for 'naps' during the day. Maybe our horses are just lazy or were not able to adjust to the lifestyle ? But it was interesting and most of the time entertaining.
Really? My guys are all out 24/7 and they do seem more active at night. It gets hot/buggy during the day so they rest in the shade during the worst times, but they've NEVER been exhausted or lacking energy the way you describe. I can't believe your horses are lazy.....I just think you like your horses on fire lol!

Quote :
I have a question about the paddock paradise. say you had a small group of horses and one of those horses was really alpha and bossed the others or one in particular around. With the lane system , if those horses had a conflict might one of those horses get in a tight spot and get injured?
You want your lanes wide enough so that horses can escape from each other if the need arises. The system would need to be tweeked a bit to fit each individual situation depending on the number of horses.

Quote :
At the stable I work at we often end up keeping almost all of the horses in separate paddocks becuase most of them do not get along and become dangerous to each other. Forcing us to make the paddocks smaller and smaller. 9 years ago the property consisted of many very large paddocks, now those 25 horses are in very small paddocks
Unfortunatly this really deminishes the amount of movement they can get and it also increases the fighting. If your hay is spread out in many small piles or if you had a large number of horses in a large area you would need to place out say 10 round bales stratigically placed so everyone has a chance to eat. You'll also notice that the boss horse will keep the group moving from bale to bale because they want the best pieces of hay for themselves. The key is to have many feeding areas and accesible watering areas where no one can get cornered. Spread your hay and water at opposite ends so horses HAVE to walk back to get a drink.

Quote :
Even when put on 2-3 arce pasture some horses STILL don't get along and well MorgansRgreat can tell you horror stories.
Maybe because I grew up around this atmosphere I am always thinking about the safety of a group of horses put out together.
It takes time for them to adjust to this type of living situation and its key that your hay is spread out, otherwise your gauranteed to have fighting. Also, sometimes what we call fighting is just horses being horses.
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PostSubject: Re: Gunnar's Colic again!!!   Wed May 13, 2009 5:58 pm

ahhh...more good points! :sunny:

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PostSubject: Re: Gunnar's Colic again!!!   Wed May 13, 2009 7:58 pm

TE - you and the Gun-man looked good today!

TC - thanks for the links - really liking the paddock paradise concept.

Now, what to do about a gelding who will get along and then for apparently no reason go after another gelding with teeth barred and full out chasing? This was on a large field with lots of grass for eating. The victim was a gelding who gets along with everyone and would not challenge bully horse. Bully horse is a lovable person horse, gentle, good natured. It was like he was possessed that day. It was frightening. Luckily, the wounds were surface cuts and we were right on the scene before too much damage could occur.

Sorry to hijack your thread Wissy and TE.
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PostSubject: Re: Gunnar's Colic again!!!   Wed May 13, 2009 11:31 pm

MorgansRgreat- Thanks :)
barefoot- Grain for sure can be a trigger for colic that's no secret. ;)
The 1-2 week break from gran was recommend by a vet, in that period of time we were to creep feed. It was a precaution to the colic. I think I read somewhere that it takes 2days for grain to go through their digestive systems.


When I mentioned the other fjord situation, I was using it as an example to say that basically Fjords eat everything and anything, they devour all eatables. Their paddock was dirt becuase they ate every inch of grass possible and left nothing.
I think if they were out in knee deep grass they would founder or at the least become grossly obese.
I do see what you are saying about new shoots being more harmful.

Of course a horse who escaped during the night could escape during the day but it never crossed their minds and there never was an issue with horses escaping until we left them out overnight . As TC and I discussed some horses are just excellent at escaping.

"Really? My guys are all out 24/7 and they do seem more active at night. It gets hot/buggy during the day so they rest in the shade during the worst times, but they've NEVER been exhausted or lacking energy the way you describe. I can't believe your horses are lazy.....I just think you like your horses on fire"

I have NEVER said that I prefer a hot horse................. :scratch:

Re read the post.... I said the horses at my work were goofing around all night, just as you said ours are more active during the night , but instead of leaving them in paddocks without shade for the day time they were brought in for 4hrs in the morning so they could rest, just as yours did in the shady areas of their paddocks.
We make do with what we have access to.
I think when they were left outside it was not part of their normal routine and they took it as play time instead of their normal rest time. Therefore they did not rest in their regular hours leaving them more tired than normal. These are stabled horses who, probably spent most of the night 'on guard' as well since they were not used to the environment they were placed in ( outside overnight).


The horses on pasture were there to graze. They do not get hay in the pasture, that is a separate meal. My point was that these horses even though they had plenty of space to roam and TONS of grass to munch , one gelding decided to chase another gelding and shredded him at the gallop. I don't think that is "horses just being horses".


Another thought... even though it is not something that is done at my work , I have put hay out in paddocks for horses and it seems to cause more problems among groups of horses. The top horse is protect the hay and fend off the others making sure they don't get a scrap.
I am sure it is due to the small space they are in.
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PostSubject: Re: Gunnar's Colic again!!!   Thu May 14, 2009 7:27 am

I have seen a horse go way out of their way to attack another..

Not sure what is going on here when they do this.. and want to single out just one other animal... This was a case of a gelding singling out a mare.... :scratch: Weird.

I am not sure what I would do in this instance. I have to think on this...
Could be a case of actually turning them out together, alone, without the other horses there to create a herd situation. Might try to make that overly aggressive horse depend on the one it dislikes in this moment, as it's only herd member in the next moment...

It would take some experimenting...

Some horses just lack social skills. I have seen horses that are SO in tune with equine social behavior that they could just twitch an ear and the rest of the herd respected him. Their was very little ear pinning and definitly no kicking or biting or lunging.

He went on to be the one that was always in the paddocks and fields with mares and their new babies to help raise respectable foals.

I have also seen ones that were taken out of a social situations early in life to become show horses... (So they wouldn't get injured by another horse, or bit up...and went right into training) They had next to no social skills. And when approached by even the most dociled natured horses, they would let both feet fly with full force... for no apparent reason.

They eventually came around though...


Maybe the horse being attacked is giving off some sort of vibe of weakness? Illness? Animals in the wild tend to weed out the weak and ill sometimes... Although I don't think I heard of it in the horseworld before... (Other then that episode of "White Cloud, Stallion of the Rockies" when a herd stallion approached a sick foal of another herd's that was left behind. He quickly put it out of it's misery.... Shocking to say the least. Was it because the foal was not well? Or more likely because it was not a foal that belonged to him.... Or maybe a little of both? Who will ever know? )

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PostSubject: Re: Gunnar's Colic again!!!   Thu May 14, 2009 8:29 am

Wow this is a great topic Love reading the up dates...
Thanks ladies!!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Gunnar's Colic again!!!   Thu May 14, 2009 8:59 am

TC.. you would think that Gunnar would be such a nice docile horse around other horses.. think again.. he's not a nice boy.. once he ran an arab through a fence (a gray) and he used to pick on another boarders horse alot.. (a gray) .. once he challanged the barn owners horse after he came back from a months training..(a paint) she thought she was going to have to go in and break it up.. it was really getting rough.. but he figured it out and backed down eventually without spilling blood.. so you never know.. Gunnar had lots of social skills ..he was in a herd of fjords until I bought him at 2 1/2 and is wonderful with people.. so much so you can almost do anything with him.. but with other horses he has another side.. a not nice side.. ummm interesting isn't it..

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PostSubject: Re: Gunnar's Colic again!!!   Thu May 14, 2009 9:25 am

This is a great discussion. I really like the idea of a paddock paradise and have my eye on one part of our property to do a smaller version of it. Now I just have to convince hubby to let me fence in ANOTHER area!
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PostSubject: Re: Gunnar's Colic again!!!   Thu May 14, 2009 11:39 am

More ideas for the Paddock and more explanation as to the benefits......

http://www.performancebarefoot.co.uk/page64.html

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PostSubject: Re: Gunnar's Colic again!!!   Thu May 14, 2009 1:23 pm

All these horses I am referring to are in training 4-5 days a week. They need to be 100% sound, no nics, scrapes, or bumps. I suppose this is part of the reason that aggressive situations try to be avoided in the first place. Not that I would EVER want to see a horse in a dangerous situation but these horses are separated if they are going to harm each other in any way.

So with the aggressive gelding we had to just separate him from his pasture mates and put him alone in a separate pasture. The gelding he shredded was one of the most lovable geldings on the property, he got along with everyone and would snuggle all the horses he was out with. Could it have been jealously? ( not sure if horses can have that emotion?)
MorgansRgreat can correct me but I think when he was at the breeder this horse was turned out with yearlings to keep them in order lol and I think he attacked his mother! Yet he nicely plays halter tag with his neighbor in the paddock adjacent to him.

There is a mare at the stable who like you mentioned... completely lacks social skills. I have never seen something to her extent. We call her the dragon mare lol because she snorts so loud and aggressively sometimes you swear fire is going to come out! She makes herself out to be really threatening but she is really just nervous of other horses and I think she has just picked up the threatening behavior from a previous boarding barn. She is kept alone, because her hind feet go flying anytime another horse comes near her, yet she whinnies every morning until her neighbor is turned out beside her. She wants a friend but has NO idea how to be one lol.. sad
She fence walks at the opposite end of her paddock if an unknown horse is turned out beside her.


Gunnar himself can be quite the demon.. lol Wissy and I say that his ears, when perked up, look like devil horns! He totally zones in on horses.. as if he's about to make the kill haha. He does it when I'm riding him, but mostly just wants to go say hi. I keep him distant because I know he would love nothing more than a little taste of the other horses lol.

He is really scrappy too! He was turned out with a 16hh Belgian x QH ( Gunnar is only 14hh.. pushing 14.1 ) a couple winters ago and it was like WWF, no joke! They would bit each others legs so much that they would get down on their knees and continue biting each other! They ended up being separated because someone was going to get hurt.

Gunnar has little man syndrome and a HUGE ego :lol: He has no idea how small he is compared to other horses sometimes.
He grew up in a heard situation but lost his mother when he was a yearling :(.


There is also a another mare at the stable who is similar to the gelding you speak of. She just barely has to twitch an ear or bat an eye and the other horses are gone like a shot from her space. It is amazing to watch.
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PostSubject: Devil Ears   Thu May 14, 2009 1:41 pm

Devil Ears :





:devil5.gif:
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PostSubject: Re: Gunnar's Colic again!!!   Thu May 14, 2009 2:17 pm

:lol: All I can say in his defense is.. "Good thing he's cute"


TE.. Wow I sure have improved on his mane trimming by the look of those old pics.. ohhhh I was bad at it back then.. lol

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PostSubject: Re: Gunnar's Colic again!!!   Thu May 14, 2009 9:01 pm

lol You're almost a professional now :lol:


Fugly had a couple points that go along with part of this thread # 4, 5. Plus check out this pic :affraid:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_uT-i4wrm9Ec/SghnWgjY5nI/AAAAAAAADno/8aohSip2rlo/s1600-h/aggressivehorse.jpg

http://fuglyhorseoftheday.blogspot.com/2009/05/beginner-mistakes-that-can-kill-your.html
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PostSubject: Re: Gunnar's Colic again!!!   Sat May 16, 2009 8:54 pm

I really good, easy to read explanation of the horse digestive system...

http://www.progressivehorse.co.uk/html/nutrition.html

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