Breeding The youngsters

Hi y'all!!! I have a debaaaatee... Better then my lumpy horse haha
SOOOO, I was cruising another forum which will remain unknown.

I want to know if I am in the right to be against this and if I am right to be kind of upset over it....

So there is this filly who got ranked high in a Canadian competition and since she's of such 'great' quality they are going to breed her next year.... This horse is turning 3 next year....

This mare is still a baby herself, her muscles, bones etc are not even fully mature. Physically and mentally I don't see how this is sensible...

3... hmmm, it would really depend on the horse and reasons behind wanting to breed.
mare would have to be physically pretty much as mature size wise as she's expected to finish,
have bloodlines or quality reasons to be reproduced, Have an owner with the knowledge and
resources to feed and care for a still maturing horse that is bred.
Some people who dont start or dont start really riding horses till they're 4 figure it's a good way to spend
the year, breed at 3, at 4 have a foal in spring, and then by summer the mare is ready to start riding.
I have bred a mare at 3, would I do that regularly.. No. It was a specific reason at a specific time on a well developed
QH. 2 yr olds I'm totally against having bred, 3 would be iffy, 4 or older would be preferred in my book.

I also think you'd be right to your own opinion just as I am to mine, but to be upset to the point that most forums get to where it's "I'm right and you're wrong" where friendships get broken and feelings hurt... then sometimes opinions can be spoken but feelings (anger or judgment) should be kept to oneself. State a point but leave feelings and emotion out of it. (unless it's something like blatant cruelty)

I owned a Canadian mare about 5 years ago that was bred as a 3 year old... I thought that was just HORRIBLE....I was dead set against the idea, in fact cursed the breeders for being so cruel to such a young mare.

THEN I was talking to a coach/trainer/breeder who I have great respect for and she said to me, "Dominica, you have to look at the big picture, do 14-16 year old "kids" have babies? does it stunt them? do they have poor milk production? are they not capable of being a good mother? We might not all agree with it but it happens and the outcome isn't always bad."

Now... I am certainly not solicitating that teenagers should be having babies by any stretch but it changed my perspective. Do I think a 14-16 year olds (who are still growing/still maturing) should have babies; definitely not in today's society BUT are they capable and does it happen? I believe many are capable and I don't believe it affects them attaining their full potential - it might just happen a little later. Good diet and good care goes a long way with both people and horses.

Now of course I also realize we are talking about horses and people but sometimes it takes looking "outside" the box to realize things aren't always as they initially appear.

One could also look at this in reverse - is it cruel to bred a 15+ year old maiden mare for the first time? Glenn and I often have that dispute... is it too much stress? are they too old and set in their ways to mother? their teeth are worn more/they might be harder to keep weight on at an older age... are we cutting their life short? Are complications more likely?

What i cannot understand is if this filly is so great then why would they breed her and put her out of commission? Oh right! They want to make a quick buck. Well at least she's a healthy horse but as for the age part and breeding...I dont' know about that...she does seem kinda young.

I met someone years ago who had a mare with laminitis, really bad laminitis. The owner bought the horse unaware of the problem but thought it might be a "good idea" to breed the animal...as this way she would "get SOMETHING out of her"...as if the poor mare OWED her something. The horse could barely support its own weight comfortably and had to be bedded down on at least a foot of shavings.
I don't know what the ridiculous outcome was of that idea.

What the heck are people thinking????????????????????????????????? The answer, Money and Greed and Selfishness with absolutely no regard to the health of the innocent animal--that's what.

Yes, I know i went off topic again...oh well...don't care.

Happy Holidays everyone!!! : )

Well I bred my paint mare at 3 years and one month of age and never stunted or affected her in the least. We have bred two of our percheron mares at 3 years of age and they have been just fine. Didn't affect any of them in the least. Normally we wait, but we chose to breed these few mares at 3. Everyone is different and yes it depends on the mare. To me, there are so many horses out there that are NOT kept care of in multiple ways and ours get everything they need nutrition wise etc, and our vets have seen nothing wrong with it. These mares are fed awesome through their pregnancies and after they foal. We have seen nothing different from breeding these few mares as we do breeding older mares.

Everyone is different and as long as the mares are kept care of then I see nothing wrong with it.

I wish everyone were like you...devoted completely to the mare and the foal--regardless of what it turns out to be...too high strung, too tall, too short, too this, too that.

Your horses and foals are the lucky ones...and are few and far between.

We usually breed our mares at 4 years old. At that age they have good growth and have decent mental stablity but you have to take each individual into account. My mare Charm had her first foal as a 5 year old and went on to have 9 more with the last being born at 21 and she is still healthy and happy at 33.

I'm happy so far that everyone is accepting each others opinion here.. it can be a touchie subject for some.. We have a bunch of awesome people on our forum and they always have their horses health and well being a priority. This is evident in all our posts.. and pictures..

Personally I have seen both sides, I've seen mares that had been bred at 3 or 4 and seem to do well, they don't seem to get stunted or suffer from it - BUT they also have excellent nutrition throughout the whole pregnancy and afterwards to ensure that their nutritional needs are met. Then I know of horses who are bred young and fed poorly and you can see how they have suffered from it, their legs don't grow straight, their back is dipped and swayed at a young age due to the extra weight and the lack of proper nutrition when they need it the most. I think as long as the horses physical and mental state is taken into consideration, and that she is kept well during it then breeding young isn't such a bad thing, but if it is done half-assed then the horse suffers and that isn't right IMO.

The thing is that NUTRITION basically is the key... And when you see broodmares with those big pot bellies on them and look aweful that's from poor nutrition. NONE of our mares that have been bred and have had many foals look like that. I mean my paint mare she's having number 6 in a few months and after she foals you'd never know she's even had foals. She keeps her figure awesome. So many people have commented on that.

But that is for sure the key in my opinion is proper nutrition. Because if a mare that has a growing fetus in them and isn't getting the proper care of course she's not going to do well.

We've had people come to our barn at feeding time and watched us feed and watched how much we feed our mares that are nursing foals and some people can't believe their eyes because we feed LARGE amounts to our girls to make sure they're getting enough. And all our mares always look awesome. YOu have to be a bit careful while the mare is still in foal as to how much you feed her, you don't want her to be OVER weight, that isn't good for mom or baby.

I guess it just depends on how much experience you have. And the way we do it, it's worked for us. Even our vets compliment us on our mares and foals and how good and plump and healthy they always look. So I guess we must do something right.

But my personal feeling, I would never breed a mare younger than 3. That's just a big no no in my opinion. And it's not often we breed a 3 year old either, just been those few. Most of our mares are 5+.

And as for the making money, ha.. good luck in making money raising foals... Hmm doesn't work.. You sure cannot make a living raising foals. I mean sometimes you come out with a few extra bucks in your pocket but not often. I know that horses are a expensive hobby, gee I work to keep my critters and I buy things for them before I buy it for myself.. ha..

But for sure everyone has their own ways and beliefs... This is just what's worked for us..

I second never making money on foals...we aren't usually into the breeding side of things but this year we bred one of our reining/penning mares and we have more money in that foal before it hits the ground than most people would ever think of paying for a foal... it makes me quite ill thinking about it.

I find it a bit strange that they wouldn't want to continue her show record...

Maybe it's like George Costanza's thoery... "Go out on a high note"...

George

Either way... I would say age 3, Minimum... I would feel more comfy with 4 or 5, but then again, I am not an experienced breeder, and I am nervous at the best of times with foaling out a mare... lol

I really cannot help myself when I respond to certain topics on here and you've all been quite patient with me. I don't believe in breeding because there are just so many unwanted horses out there that are going to have a terrifying, painful, end to their lives whether they end up in slaughterhouses, or in some neglectful situation. These horses were brought into this world and no one cared enough about them to see that they had a decent life and humane ending to their lives. I am trying to understand why anyone would want to breed a horse when we know that there are so many out there that need a home...kinda like recycling you know. I say this respectfully to all who are breeding or choose to breed, so don't be angry, but don't you feel just a little bit guilty bringing more into this world when you know it will "bump" some other horse right out of hope of getting a good home/life? Do you know what I mean? Many of the horse rescue places ensure their mares go to homes and will not be used for breeding because they see, first hand, the result of it. I know the people on here take good care of their horses, but I cannot for the life of me understand the "joy" in breeding a mare once or on a "regular" basis. If we could line up the horses destined for slaughter...these horses that were brought into this world...if we could see them all...I think things might change a bit...don't you think? They are out there. Please help me understand. Thanks.

I also hate slaughters, but I am currently waiting for a foal to be born. Some horses that are sent to slaughter or other fates such as that may have another reason other than being "bumped". I know of a LOT of wonderful horses who have been through life and been great to their owners. They decided to not be selfish and believed in the "circle of life" and the horses went to Oakland Zoo. Sounds morbid I know but it is the most natural. So, okay just to start a whole new issue, what about cows? Sheep? Pigs? Chickens? They all go to slaughterhouses and start off as some peoples pets. But there is no issue with that? (Not trying to step on toes)

Thank you for your reply.

Oh my, the question about livestock...is a loaded one..but a good opportunity for me to say: If one is interested in looking into this issue they should check out Global Action Network's website...and under Campaigns there are many fact sheets on how animals are "treated". All I can say is that this site turned me into an instant non-meat eater about two years ago.

Now before the farmers out there get a bit upset with me...I would like to add that I do realize that not all chickens, cows, pigs, sheep, are killed inhumanely. I also do not believe that animals are not ours "to eat"...as some people do. All I want to see is that animals be treated well and killed in the most humane manner possible...with the "systems in place" to stun the animal carried out properly...and this is not to be in most cases (factory farms for example). The facts will no doubt shock you but once you know, then you can make better choices, more humane choices, as to where you buy your meat, eggs, etc. and believe me, you most likely be glad you took a few minutes to put aside "ignorance is bliss". There is just too much suffering out there to ignore.

Anyway, back to the horsies....I'll continue to "recycle" by finding my horses through friends...but that's just me.

I wish you all the best with your foal.

I don't eat meat. I have seen how they kill the animals. But what I was trying to say is everything is used as meat. When there is supply, there will be demand. Horses, cows, chickens, sheep, goats, most livestock is used for meat whether we like it or not. Supply and demand is the way it works and regardless of how they are killed it will never stop happening. How do you know there are no underlying issues with some of the horses that are going to slaughter? I currently know of a mare who was sold as a riding horse. It would be more humane for her to be put down but she will have to suffer. As bad as this may sound the suffering would end for some who go to slaughter.

I see your perspective, but pressuring your views on those reputiable breeders is not a good thing.

"check out Global Action Network's website...and under Campaigns there are many fact sheets on how animals are "treated"

just remember that websites like that are very biased and promote the worst that they can find to post and dont always put "fact" or "truth" in any light that might not promote their belief. Same with any organization trying to promote an idea or belief. There are good and bad in any slaughter situation, some regulated and monitored properly, others not so good. Some ship the stock in properly, others cram and cause unnecessary fear and pain. I've seen horses that a trip on the slaughter truck and a quick end would have been much nicer than where the were living in suffering or inhumane situations.

And for the breeding issue... I also have 2 mares due in spring, both have show or race records to prove their value and worthiness to reproduce. and both bred to quality stallions. Their foals wont "bump" any unwanted foals.... People in the market for quality foals wouldnt be shopping in the low end district so those fugly foals wouldnt be bought by them. I do breed but I also "upgrade" outside horses/ponies regularly, I shop for prospects that either need groceries, training, handling or just an upgrade from poor situations and on average I do 3-4 of them per year, some of the ones I've upgraded I know for a fact that their next stop was the slaughter house had I not intervened.
But again... I dont feel slighted by someone who doesnt think I should breed my mares, or someone who is anti Slaughter or for any opinion someone has that is different than mine... we'd be pretty boring if we all thought or believed the same. I dont let it upset me in a personal way. I do like hearing others thoughts and ideas and sometimes I learn something or hear something in a way that sheds a little more light in my own understanding so all discussion is good to me :)

I am writing from a breeders point of view. My mother raised horses for over 50 years and we were always thought to be responsible for the welfare of our animals...that was that you cared for your breeding stock, picking animals of quality, ability and temperment. Making sure that you were complimenting good traits and improving any flaws. Just because an animal could reproduce didn't mean it should. You match healthy, happy animals and pray that they will produce the same. You care and nurture your mares for a year, worry and fret, lose sleep while waiting for a foal to arrive and believe me when you witness the arrival of a healthy foal there is nothing there but wonder...no matter how many times it happens. Then you have to opportunity to bond with a foal and to guide it along to the point where you can place it in a loving situation. Those situations can be of the breeders choosing...that is where the joy comes in. When you receive a handritten note from a little boy telling you what fun he is having with his new friend, or a mom who is coping with the loss of a child and the serenity of a foal is helping, a tin of Christmas cookies arrives with a card with hoof prints on it, a quick update note from a happy owner...that is the joy. I have had the "blessing" to have bought a foal as a teenager myself, raise her, trainer her, grow old with her and wish everyone could the same wonderful experience so in some small way I am hoping our foals can do the same for someone else.

We have done rescues as well. They were in sad shape when they came to us and I wish they came with a manual that you relay their story. TLC and time helped to bring them back to the point where they were able to be rehomed into loving situations. In a perfect world all horses and animals in general would be wanted and cared for but sadly it is far from a perfect world. It saddens me greatly when I see so many horses especially the young and healthy in the kill lots for whatever reason. I know there are humane treatment regulations in place that plants are to follow and, for the most part, try to impliment but there are those that slip under the radar.

I really respect individual opinions and fully believe in the right to voice them. Life would be very boring if we all thought the same.

Thank you.

all the best in the new year to everyone.

Well all I can say is that I think there are ALOT of horses out there that are bred that SHOULDN'T be.. These people that breed just to breed TRASH out there, those are the ones that shouldn't be. Ones that have all four legs going different ways just so much I could say about that. But everyone sees things differently and you can't control everything. I show my paints and percherons, and we do our best to try and breed quality...

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs... makes the world go round..

And we try and make sure that any of the ones that we do sell go to the BEST of homes. We've managed to be pretty fortunate in that we've found most all ours in the awesome homes we thought they would be. I had one that ended up in a crappy home, but where they are boarded now I trust that person. But you can't control everything. I just do my very best my animals are everything to me so I try and do everything to protect them. But once they are out of your hands you can only hope and pray that they are in a home like I have provided for them.. Doesn't always work but what can yah do...

Thanks for all your input everyone.

It threw me right off when these ppl said they were breeding this mare coming on 3 next year... Reading and listening to what everyone's valused opinion opened my eyes and I can look at BOTH sides....

I'm sure this horse I read about will get the best of care, the right nutrition but I do believe the reason why they are breeding her is because it is a money maker...

I have watched and know how animals are slaughtered... It is always done humanely and large animals they use captive bolt so it's a death without pain. I'm against horse slaughter but I think it's because when I see a horse in distress all I can picture is that being my horse...

And you are right Jorgia.. There are a lot of trash horses bred to make more trash horses... But then again, seems to me people are doing that with dogs nowadays. I work at a vet clinic and we deal with animal control all the time... It is so sad seeing a lot of dogs put down because they were seized or found stray and are vicious dogs.. It's not their fault, just the ones who raised them....

Yep you are so right, same with Dogs. I have Newfoundland dogs, and my breeder is VERY strict with what she breeds.. And these people that just because their dogs testing comes back good, they still aren't looking at the backgrounds of these animals. There could be dysplasia etc in the background but that doesn't seem to matter. But these people too that breed NON purebred dogs just to make a few cents on them, pathetic. And breeding dogs you NEVER make money. A lot of them need C-Sections, they should be x-rayed before giving birth so that you know how many pups to expect to be born etc. It's really A LOT of work and responsibility that most people DO NOT think about.. And it's a lot of money involved... But that's just all those irresponsible breeders out there... Hard to take but I just try not to think about it because it's just upsetting...

There are a lot of people coming in with litters of puppies for their 6 week vaccines.. A lot are full of worms, flea bitten and some very thin. it's all because people do not look into what it takes to breed their dogs... There is no making money, that is for sure. Just like horses! I hate seeing dogs come in that were 'accidently' bred and are 18 months old. How could they be so careless to allow their in heat dog with their un-neutered male?!?!

I don't support breeding since there is enough stray cats and dogs out there and I deal with a shelter and the pound around here. I'm not saying there isn't any good breeders out there I just choose to not support someone who is willing to produce more dogs in this world and leaving a shelter dog one less place to have a home.

It's funny how my topic went off on something else ha

I think breeding dogs, horses or whatever you will find alot of differing opinions. What one person might find suitable in a horse another person might shudder at the thought.

Personally I don't think I'd breed a 3 year old but again that is just me.

With breeding so much depends on the individual horse and the environment they are living in (and I mean all environmental factors from training to the living environment to nutirtion et cetera). Each individual horse matures - physically and mentally - at a different rate no matter their breed and this maturity should be taken into consideration when breeding. Personally I only have first hand experiance with a few breeding/foalings, for my mare she was bred as a 2 yr old then had a foal at 3 and was immedately re bred and had another foal at four (this is when I got her). Her physical development appears to have been hindered from carrying the excess weight and stress load of an expectant mother and as a mother so young and her mind set is not that of a five year old (her current age). She also did not appear to receive proper nutrition durring the time she was pregnant.

On a personal level I have a problem with any horse (mare or stallion) taking part in the breeding process when they are under the age of three and would prefer them to be between the ages of 5-12 for a maiden breeding. That in mind if the horse will receive proper nutrition, care, excercise, treatment et cetera durring their pregnancy and following it and they are mentally mature enough (though peoples opinions of this maturity greatly differs) and the bulk of their growth is finnished on an individual basis I would consider breeding a horse between the ages of 3 and 5.