Colic again.. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Gunnar Coliced again last nite.. started at around 4pm for no apparent reason.. any hoo.. gave him some banamine (sp?) and about 20 mins later he was back to his irrating every one self.. banging his feed bowl.. and just being a pest.. thank goodness.. next time I told him I was going to beat him with a stick.. no more colic.. the good thing this time is no vet required..
Now this is what I was thinking.. he colics maybe like most horses .. only in most horses we don't notice it, because it's a mild colic and they handle it.. Gunnar on the other hand.. flips out when ever he has a pain in his belly.. this is the first time we treated it immediately and took the pain away.. so thinking he didn't really get a chance to get worked up over it.. The last time the vet was there he said that his heart rate was higher than the mare that was really really sick with colic.. her heart rate was much lower and never put out a sweat like him.. so all in all he's a wooze.. not saying it doesn't hurt.. just saying he doesn't handle it well therefore makes it worse by getting so upset.. does this make sense???
I'm still back to beating him with the stick!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :devil5.gif:

what the heck is with him......is he really PIGGY with his food????/ you didnt change anything, or add something new???????? Poor buggar........well at least you were Johnny on the Spot this time.........but I still wonder WTF????

I don't know Joan.. he's not overly piggy with his food.. he doesn't get a lot of grain.. free choice on the hay.. we did start giving him probiotics about four days ago.. we stopped that now.. geesh.. he's just a wooze..

Could he have a ulcer that will bring on Colic and can also cause cribbing.. Chevy had a ulcer and he would get mild colic on and off and I know Judy horse ( her own horse ) she was training ended up cribbing because of a ulcer she treated the ulcer and the cribbing pretty well stopped after that.... Oats can irritate ulcers also so if you are feeding them switch to high fat and high fiber..

he's on high fat and fiber and not much of that.. with equalizer for the vitamins.. and a bit of flax.. that's it besides his hay..

Poor Gunnar, they are a worry aren't they........

Did yuo read my post on how the diestive system works in a horse.? maybe you will find something in it that may help you? Dunno... but here it is..



Digestive sytem....we would need to back it up...and break it down.

First, lets look at what a horse needs in it's diet:
Fiber
Supplements
Minerals
vitamins and
Water.

Now lets look at how does the digestive system works.
The horse should nibble and pick as a "forager", not a "grazer" ....and should be eating very high fibre, very low sugar content... if it is, then this ideal situation takes place:
The food heads into a small stomach where there is a pool of acid that starts the digestive process... then quickly moves into the hind gut. In the hind gut there a different types of digestive bacteria that are used to break down different types of foods that the horse may eat... So they wait in low levels, ready to step up to the plate when it is needed for that particular ingredient.. When the food comes in, those digestive bacteria raise up in level, but once the food moves on after being diegested, they die off, back down to their low level again waiting for the next meal of that ingredient... The dead bodies of the bacteria, give off toxins.....It is toxic to horses, although not in these small doses that it takes to break down the foods....


That is the way the horse was designed to eat...

However, for us to feed them like they were meant to eat, is very hard... we can get close to it... but most folks would find it next to impossible due to work, scheduling, boarding situations, Running kids to their soccer game ...etc...

What most of us do, what most of us were taught to do, what we like to do, is this:
Provide the horse "meals".... The horse may eat the meal, then go without anything for a few hours... then fed another meal.. Or they might be turned out a pasture where they can eat mouthfuls of grass at a time...(Guilty of that here! lol)

So when we feed this "meal", the same digestive process occurs... That particular bacteria needed, for that particular food, steps up to the plate to start breaking it down... But in a much larger number...TOO large of a number... Once the food source for this bacteria is all gone, the bacteria die back off but the natural toxins are in a greater number, TOO great of a number... which can be very toxic for the horse...

In a large number of process feeds, they have NSC's, ( Nonstructual Charbohydrates) In processed feeds, these consist of sugar, Starch and fructans.
These NSC's are not really digested by the horse... And a particular digestive bacteria (s.bovis) ferments the NSC's into Lactic Acid... Which can be used by the horse, but not in this large amount.... in this excess, it drops the PH level in the hind gut and raises the acid level.. This then in-turn, kills off the fibre fermenting bacteria...( one of the GOOD bacterias).
In a nutshell, the high sugar diets that cause this acid, that kills the GOOD bacteria needed for breaking down the much needed fiber, actually starves the horse ... (sound familiar? "Hard keepers"?...) So no matter how much we feed them...the acid is killing off the fibre fermenting bacteria, so the horse never gets a chance to utilize the GOOD fibrous part of the feed it may be getting...

Bottom line..horses don't need GRAIN...(or processed feeds made from grain).. The list of vitamins and minerals on the side of a bag of feed, all come from one or a combination of the following:
the sun, soil, foraging material, the digestive bacteria, grass, etc...

The only reason one MAY need grain, is to add extra calories to one that is not getting enough... But if a horse has 24 hour access to hay and/or grass, even sport and performance horses (that are being worked hard)... don't need grain...

All it is for the majority of us, is habit, and what was passed down the lines from people before us in the horse industry.

The other reason we feel the need to feed processed feeds is "in case the horse is missing something"... (Been there, done that! Bought the t-shirt! Totally guilty of saying and doing that... )
The feed manufacturers take all these grains...mix them together, throw in some vitamins and minerals for a nice balanced meal.. stick it together with molasses....(No horse should EVER have molasses... ever! ).. Add a pretty label. We then proceed to feed a scoop of it a day (or more) "just in case" the horse is missing something in their diet...(Mineral or vitamin)...

(Feed manufacturers ARE getting smarter, and making their feeds based on Soy hulls or beet pulp...which are high in fibre..and much easier to digest for the horse...and then adding their vitamin mineral to it).

So, we feed this bag of "Balanced diet" to our horse... GREAT if that was ALL they were getting...then yes, it WOULD be balanced... But what if the horse is lacking some vitamin/mineral in their hay or pasture? Or getting too much of a mineral/vitamin? Feeding a "Balanced" diet is no longer balanced? (Light bulb moment for me!). Same goes for the fancy mineral suppliers who sell what a horse needs in a nice balanced ration... (Is that what Equalizer is? I have never looked into it personally so I apologize for not knowing...)

What we SHOULD be doing, is having our hay and soil/pastures tested...to see what they may be lacking, then add that mineral/supplement to the horse's diet.. (We ALL already do this with selenium..it is a known fact the maritimes lack it in our soil, so we add it to our horses' diet... yet we rarely, if ever check out our own individual pasture or hay source for what ELSE may be missing...) What you may have a lot of in YOUR pasture, the horse owner down the road may NOT have in her pasture...

Do we all need to do this testing? No, not necessarily, if our horses are healthy happy and "never" get sick.....we are probably ok..
However, if you see signs of trouble like, stress, colic, fading coats, rough coats, dull eyes, change in behavoir, doesn't want to work all of a sudden, hooves that are flared, cracked, have fungus issues, bruising, mud fever rain rot etc etc).. Then yes, it should be something you look into having done...

Also, an excess of ONE mineral can deplete another mineral and take it right out of the equation...
Bottom line on the whole mineral/vitmain added to feed topic, (or a seperate supplement supplier all together ).. If you feed it totally balanced to an animal eating imbalanced hay or pasture... it is STILL imbalanced.

Find out what is needed first, THEN have a professional mix you the proper supplement for your horses at YOUR barn that is eating your pasture, and your supplied hay. (Dairy Farmers do all this already....!)

Examples:
Can't get a good foot to grow on your horse? Could be a zinc deficiency for example... :)

Horses on hay only, no pasture? The grass loses it's omega 3 fatty acids and vit E in the drying process... Which is what helps a horse with inflamation.... So Flax seed can help here...

A fading coat? Nope, not the sun causing it...could be a copper deficiency...


Maybe it is a mineral imbalance bothering him? Maybe his stomach can only handle small amounts at a time.. ? I am not sure... It's a tough one..., and I am sure quite frustrating for you... :/

Poor Gunnar. I am so glad it did not progress. I wish I could rid the world of colic. That and cancer. The two dreaded c's.

Thanks TC.. I think you should talk with me on this again when we see each other.. I read and re read... but I still not sure I understand it all..

MRG.. yes Colic and Cancer be gone.. must be a spray for that.. there is for everything else.. geesh!

Lightning had an ulcer, that's why she was colicing so much. Apparently ulcers are quite prevalent with show horses. Or horses that are away from home often. Who knew??!! She was always fine when she was at a new location for a show or clinic but she must have been hiding her anxiety well.
Wissy, I'm so glad the Gunnar is okay!

Poor Gun-Man. The Canadian mare that boards here has a very sensitive tummy too. Luckily she's only had 2 really bad bouts of colic. Scarey! I've had a chatt with her and told her to stop it, and so far so good. Perhaps if you just EXPLAINED things to Gun-Man he'd stop too ...

Give the boy a pat for me. He's my absolute favourite!

More info, broken down:

What kind of EATERS horses are...basically, they are foragers, not GRAZERS for one..
http://www.dakotapremiumhay.com/nutrition2.html


How the digestive tract breaks things down.. Interesting note, even pelleted feed can cause issues. It passes through too fast, and the horse misses out on the quality of what that pellet may have to offer... Makes sense..

Quote :

Feedstuffs with smaller particle size, such as pelleted feeds have a faster rate of passage than chopped or long stemmed hay.
A faster rate of passage may result in a depression in nutrient digestion and absorption, and thus the feeding value may be diminished.

http://www.dakotapremiumhay.com/dig_phis.html

Nutritional requirements:
http://www.dakotapremiumhay.com/nut_reccom.html


And again, the all important fibre:
http://www.dakotapremiumhay.com/fiber2.html

Bottom line... fibre fibre fibre...
A MEAL of any sort fed all at once, can cause stomach upset because the digestive tract gets tripped up.
Missing minerals. supplements and vitamins can cause issues... too much of one can deplete another.


If I had a problematic horse such as Mr Gunman, personally, I would get my hay tested.. And then have someone make me a mineral mix for what he is lacking...
And totally get rid of any feed stuffs...pelleted or not... unless it is swelled beetpulp... Or something similar.


And again, like Lightning mentioned.... it is a known fact that show horse have a higher ulcer rate... They live a more stressful life, (Stress of the show scene, but also the trailering and being stalled, the standing around for large periods of time, bizarre schedules etc... Add MEALS to that life, and it can be come pretty hectic in that horse's stomach.. )
(Was he ever scoped by a vet?)

Quote :

he doesn't get a lot of grain

What was it he got for "grain" again... (I know the term can be used for many things... lol)

uggg.. this topic is so confusing for me.. ok he gets about 2 cups of high fat and fiber with 1/2 cup of equalizer with a scoup of flax.. all the hay he can eat.. our hay supplier does have his hay tested and is good quality hay for horses.. what that means I have no idea.. and then I give him treats.. it's blue seal hay stretch.. .. ok is this what I should do.. because the hay is really nice and good quality.. should I take him off grain and just feed in Hay stretch.. so he thinks he's getting grain.. it's big huge pellets.. not small ones like the purina hay pellets.. and then that's it??? he has a mineral salt lick he lovesssssss... licks it all the time.. first he wets his mouth and slobbers all over the salt lick..
whay do you think of the hay stretch?

Another great article here...
All about the deceptions on a feed label...
http://www.hoofrehab.com/diet.htm

I will have to look at the ingredients of hi fat hi fibre...and hay stretch... Will see what I can find...


edited to add....

Anyone WANTING to learn more... from a Person (Vet) that is not paid by feed manufacturers... There is an online course... I am determined to take one of these days...

http://www.drkellon.com/home.html

thanks T.. I'll check out the label on the hay stretch too if I still have it.. ummm

Blue seal hay stretch.

crude Protein Min 11.5%
crude fat Min.2%
Crude fiber Max. 20%
calcuim Min. .805 max 1.30%
Phosphorus Min. .45%

ingredients
Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Wheat Middlings, Oat Mill by Product, soybean hulls, cane molasses, calcium carbonate
it says
No t be used soley as a complete feed..
and its says
Hay stretcher is a large pellet with nutritional profile similar to grass and hay, but slightly lower in fiber and higher in enerby. It may be used to replace up to half the hay in an amimal's diet on a pund for pund basis. It is suitable for horses, cattle, sheep and goats. hay stretcher is not fortified with vitamins or trace minerals and should not be used to replace grain in an animals diet..

Like I said today get him off the high fat high fiber I've known alot of horses to colic off of it. hopefully that will help him some

I don't see why he is on this hay stretch...he gets hay all the time doesn't he?

It is lower in fibre... higher in energy...

Honestly this is tough.. having no idea what is in his actual hay, means that what is on the side of the bag means squat.


You did say your supplier has his hay tested? Can you get a copy of the analysis? THAT is where the meat of this problem lies... What is he possibly missing, or getting too much of, in the food that he eats 24/7.

Start at the bottom, then work your way up. :)

This time I think it was was dehydration and could partially have something to do with the new supplement I put him on :roll:
I noticed that he had a bit of discolored pee ( at the end his pee) on this evening. This can be a sign of dehydration as well. Though he is on half salt twice a day and gets his salt block when he comes in his stall ( couple hrs overnight).

He does panic when he colics, but we/I notice the symptoms asap. I am VERY familiar the signs, because I work at a boarding barn. I think sometimes people don't notice the signs and a minor gas build up can be misunderstood.
I was talking to someone the other day and they said that they read an article in the horse journal that 80% of horses have ulcers.


TC- Hay stretch isn't part of Gunnar's regular diet. We use it as a treat instead of sugary treats, our vet recommended them.

Gunnar is also usually worked 4-5days a week for 45mins. I think he needs his grain.

Quote :

Gunnar is also usually worked 4-5days a week for 45mins. I think he needs his grain.

Grain...grain as in whole grains? oats? or processed feeds made from grains? or do you call anything he gets as a meal as "grain"...(It can mean different things for different people) I am assuming you mean a combination of his pelleted feed and flax, and equalizer??
("grain" to me, was always whatever I was feeding at the time...lol Now it means GRAINS....as is the actually plant product..)

His work load is not that large...

Personally, it doesn't matter to me...but it seems something is amiss... and if the hay is tested, that is half the battle.. your equalizer, and "grain" could still have him totally out of whack. Just because THEY may be balanced for his workload, it means squat if the hay is UNbalanced...

Maybe I am not making sense... lol
Take an unbalanced product, and mix it with an balanced product, means, it is still unbalanced. If he was getting balanced product ONLY, then the whole diet issue would be out of the equation..

Quote :

I was talking to someone the other day and they said that they read an article in the horse journal that 80% of horses have ulcers.

Very true... and very scarey isn't it? Freaks me out!

TC I don't know if I can get that from the supplier.. I will ask the BO, she told me he had his hay tested. I'll see if I can get it.. and if the hay stretch is same as hay then why can't he have a small scoup of that instead of grain.. makes him think he is getting grain like everyone else in the barn.. ?? right??

I can only assume the hay is at least 12% protien.. ??? am I right.. and if that's the case then what next.. ???

I highly doubt the stretch will be the same. Hay can be different from field to field, let alone processed in a plant...compared to what comes off that field.

That being said... as a treat? I am sure it is no big deal. :)

Hay analysis... I hear the Protein content a lot... seems most folks are worried about it's levels, but what about the fibre content? Copper? Zinc? Sugar? Calcium? Phosphorus

Not that you need to get everything tested.. but the possibilities are endless.

Did you have bloodwork done on him from the last time he was sick...? Is there a test to see if he is lacking or having an abundance of anything in particular?

Sorry I am not much help. I am not an expert, but the more I read on this stuff.. the more it all makes sense.

http://en.engormix.com/MA-equines/news/horse-nutrition-equine-hay_14616.htm

Hay can and SHOULD be like 99% of the horse's diet... (Less of course in the summer if on pasture)..

It is my understanding that the hay can test different on the same field if it is mow at diffident times during the day. Have you looked at the diffident trees and leaves he can get at. Had to re-fence some of my area because of the Walnut trees.

PL, that is correct, especially with Sugar levels. That is why you have to take samples of several different bales to get a good average of what that particular field is producing...