Colic again

Gunnar Coliced again last nite.. it's the strangest thing.. he gets really quiet and he lays down and pushes his feet up against the wall and stretching his neck out , then he rubs his nose back and forth over and through his bedding.. does the same with his head and neck when he's flat out.. very little rolling.. well we stop him when he tries..
So gave him banimine (sp) we have it in bulk at the barn.. 8cc instead of 10cc this time as directed by our vet.. so 20 mins after he's now flat out and snoring and dreaming.. tummy rumbles.. all looks good.. 45 to 50 mins later he's up and ready to rumble.. ummmm .. he's one strange boy.. I'm wondering if it is not colic but something else.. muscle spasm.. maybe.. we've done everything except do a scope.. still waiting on that.. I still find it hard to fight the urge to walk him, years of doing this on colic horses is hard to break, but as pointed out to me Gunnar does much better left to rest .. walking him seems to stress him more..

I have very limited knowledge on colic so you can take what I say very lightly

Did he always colic? or has it only started within the last 6 months or so...

Is he currently being worked regularly? Colic more/less when he is being worked?

Have you tried changing his forage... hay vs haylage vs hay cubes

Have you tried giving him peptobismal (sp?) after meals/mix it in with his grain? I know that sounds really foolish but anything that appears to have a tummy ache (horse/cow/sheep) we give them that stuff...

Banamine seems to work quite well on him I just wonder if there isn't any long term effects with regular use...

I was told once that adding flax to their diet helps colic but I imagine you already tried that.

My late mare Abby used to get gas colic, at least a couple of times every winter, we used to encourage her to drink more by giving the horses warm water from the house at least twice a day, that seemed to help (now we haul warm water twice a day for 3 horses!) It seemed to help her...poor Gunnar!
How many times is that this winter for the widdle man?

Oh my poor little man! It sure can't be very pleasant for him. It sounds that now you at least have a treatment at the ready, which isn't as good as being able to prevent it, but at least it's short lived.

I also use Pepto for the slightest indication of tummy upset. Our vet recommended it. Mind you, Stretch looks pretty funny with the pink lips afterwards, but it seems to head things off at the pass.

Give my best to the Gun Man. I'll be thinking of him (and you too of course!).

umm I think we've tried just about everything, diet change, probiotics, he's been colicy since shortly after I bought him 4 years ago.. now the have seemed to change this past year to more often but not sever.. or we are treating it differently.. he's coliced three times very close together, the last two were only a few weeks apart.. it was just before xmas.. hauling warm water to the paddock is not an option.. they drink from the brook which never freezes over. I don't have him at home with me so warm water everynight is not an option either... he gets no grain.. equalizer .. probiotics and a handful of hay stretch more as a treat so he doesn't feel left out at meal time.. omg I fed my other horses thistle loads of stuff and no one ever ever coliced .. what's up with this guy.. me thinks he likes the banamine .. he gets that druggy look.. and he likes it.. weird pony..

poor baby! I used Pepto when Simi had the runs bad.. She liked it lol.. Thanks to Moody blue she is on a real good diet that seems to be working for her... thistle opps...

CJ How'd you get Simi to read.. geesh I'm still working on Gunnar's Math..

M I know it's expensive but I would stop waiting and get him scoped there has got to be something wrong with him internally you have tried everything and nothing works. Is he insured? If so a friend of mine took her horse to the island for a scope and it was covered. I would worry that if you don't get him checked by them that the next colic could be alot worse.

What is equalizer? is it like high fat high fiber? if so the horses at Equine Excellence kept colicing off so that could be an issue.

Good luck

Wissy, I was thinking the same thing. Maybe the Gun-Man is a druggie. He needs his banamine fix. He does have that Woodstock look about him

I hope you can get this figured out and his stays pain free.

Equalizer is a vitamin supplement.. he does not get grain at all.. He's not covered under insurance, but I'm looking into it .. scoping is an option and looking into that as well..

you were right last time...CB air, and JD nightly is just the ticket for the boy...and I know just the place Hope he's back to 'normal' today!

Sooke.. I'll put him on the next bus to CB.. start the fencing!

I can't feed the Equalizer to Arrow - after 2 days he is almost jumping out of his skin.....I've tried it a couple of times with him...how is your man now?

oh he's right as rain now.. equalizer is no problem with him, he again only gets about 1/4 of a cup..

D-Cutch wrote:

I have very limited knowledge on colic so you can take what I say very lightly

Did he always colic? or has it only started within the last 6 months or so...

Is he currently being worked regularly? Colic more/less when he is being worked?

Have you tried changing his forage... hay vs haylage vs hay cubes

Have you tried giving him peptobismal (sp?) after meals/mix it in with his grain? I know that sounds really foolish but anything that appears to have a tummy ache (horse/cow/sheep) we give them that stuff...

Banamine seems to work quite well on him I just wonder if there isn't any long term effects with regular use...

I was told once that adding flax to their diet helps colic but I imagine you already tried that.

D:
Like Wissy said he's been colicing since she has owned him as a 3-4yr old. It used to be once to twice a year due to diet changes and now nothing changes and he colics every 2-3months on the dot! Now it has been 2 weeks in between episodes. This time he did not bounce back as well as he usually does. He is still really quiet, and looks bloated, he looks depressed. I feel like his drinking has decreased as well.

He has coliced after being worked and he has also coliced when he hasn't been worked. Every single time he colics it's around 4pm or within an hour or 2 after. He's like freaking clock work. It's like his little system is on a schedule.
He is worked 4 days a week from spring to fall then has the winter moths off with some periodic riding. He is brought back into work very carefully and never overworked and always cooled out.


Changing his hay is not an option, he has coliced before with a change in his hay. Haylege and hay cubes are more rich than the hay he is getting now. I don't think it would be the best thing for him as his breed is not meant to be on a rich diet.

Banomine is recommended by our vet, we used have a vet out every time, but after a while the vet just started recommending that we give him the banomine and call them in 45mins, instead of coming out. Each time this has worked. So this is why he is given banomine as Gunnar seems to panic when he gets too gassy. If he is given the drug when early signs of colic are detected he is able to pull through much easier. The longer we wait for the drugs he worse he gets. He panics and gets himself into a sweating frenzy, has muscle tremors and will not stay on his feet, frantically trying to roll.
This is also why I mentioned that he not be walked. I found if he is carefully watched and left alone he stays more calm and does not panic as much. I know it's hard to not walk a colicing horse, I was taught the same thing, but his little horse is a sook, and needs his drugs and a blankie and a good night kiss. lol He's like a teenager who has a sign on their bedroom door that says "keep out" .

But you're right D using a drug like this regularly is not good for his system. I do not know the specific issues, but it's def hard on his heart, organs and his whole system over a long period of time.

Again, he has been on lots of supplements that are said to be " Good for colicing horses" and had no change. He's been on High Fat High Fibre , Flax, GI tract supplement, Canola oil. He now gets even less, a small handful of hay stretch, apple sauce container of equalizer, half salt, and Equine-oprem.

Ellie May:
Watering is not much of an option. I still am at the barn almost everyday and take a bucket of water out to him in his paddock for a few sips even though I know he's using the river. There is a well beat down path in his paddock to his water source, a river, I always check to see if that path looks well used. Firebug always lets us know when Gunnar is frequently going for water at the river.

NBN:
Equalizer is in the form of pelleted grain but is supposed to be like a multi-vitamin. He has been on it since day one. I have heard several times that horses have colic issues with this grain.



http://www.seminolefeed.com/ProductSheetsforWeb/Equalizer.htm
http://www.horsebarn.com/content/horse-food/equalizer-horse-food

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Who Needs It
Horses that could benefit from equalizer horse feed include horses doing heavy work but living on poor pasture, foals and growing young horses, breeding stallions and broodmares. These horses are expending a tremendous amount of energy either to grow, to work or to breed, and so need an extra bit of nutritional energy. Other horses who may need it (if your vet concurs) include horses who live mostly on good pasture grass only, horses who need fattening up after a long illness and horses living outside in winter.
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paddock to his water source, a river

Ever do a water test on the river water?
Shot in a the dark... but you never know..

TC: Nope, but would be interesting. Though he has changed paddocks in the last 2yrs and was colicing in his other paddock which did not have a river running through it, it had water buckets that were filled daily.

I think like NBN said there's more going on than just little things in his environment. Something is up with his system.

Like NBN, I think its time to get the big guns involved. Something is not right. Geesh, I don't know what I would do if I was in your position Wissy. There was a horse on the Equinextion forum, Peregrine who no matter what his owner did for him he always had issues. His diet was right, turnout, trim, EVERYTHING, this girl was 100% obsessed. Finally, she had him scoped when he didn't improve from one of his episodes and he was full of cancer. Sometimes, when we try everything and nothing works, its an indication that something major is wrong.

I believe that 24ht turnout plays a HUGE roll, especially with this breed. Its really too bad that its not an option. Movement and digestion keeps the gut moving, that's why marathon runners have the runs.

I'm also very skeptical about Equalizer. Why not ditch the Equalizer (it still contains grain) and go with a straight mineral? Feed companies sneak things in those mixtures. I'm sure if you read the label you'll find corn or other grains on the ingredients list.

I hope you can find out what's wrong with him. All these colics must be scary!

Barefoot- He is on just a straight powder vitamin now... Equine oprem. He has been on this for a little less than a month, our vet recommended it after we had a blood and urinalysis done which showed he was low in sodium and phosphate.

This is what equine oprem is:
http://www.hoofbeatsdist.com/pdf%20brochures/Equineoprem.pdf

You're right he probably does not need the Equalizer since it is sorta of the same thing as Equine oprem. He was given equalizer to balance out his diet, but his test results show that isn't so. I posted a link on equalizer showing all the ingredients.

Though I agree movement is important I know 20+ horses that receive much less turn-out than him and are healthier than him. He is living a pretty good little life but there is more to it than simple things in his environment. We have changed and looked into so much over the last year or more regarding his diet and environment and there has been no change in him.
The only probably with 24/7 turn-out is that we have a lot of coyotes in our area, who are very brave. I don't think Wissy or I could bare the thought of the little fur ball outside at night with a chance that coyotes could harm him. The stable I work at up the road has lost 7 cats to coyotes.

I was actually out on a hack today, on another horse with a friend, and saw a coyote. It was less than 100 feet away from us, standing on the logging road. It slinked off into the woods after staring at us for a few mins. When we got to the area where it had been standing there were several other tracks along with it. I also live in a residential area next to Gunnar's home, and have coyotes come into the neighborhood at night, I have woken up to a pack of them yipping and going nuts, very spooky.


We are getting a new vet since Sackville Animal Hospital is no longer looking after large animals so we will she what their opinion is on Gunnar's health. Our previous vet was out of answers and tried very hard to help with his issues.

I know it's been mentioned, but I have to wonder if perhaps it could be the water that is causing Gunner's colic and not food. Even though he was in a paddock with buckets before he may have some type of bacteria in his gut.
Who knows what bacteria could be in the river not to mention some contaminant human or animal. Beavers are known to contaminate the water and cause beaver fever making humans or animals very sick. Perhaps something in the water could be causing his colic. Just grasping, but it might not hurt to have it tested that way it could be ruled out.

Sorry TE, somehow I missed the links on page 1. So, after analysing the ingredients, Equalizer contains a lot of grain items that I would personally be concerned about feeding to a breed that has a tendency to be insulin resistent (bolded a few - rice bran is really high in carbs, alfalfa is a worry with high NSC's, not sure on soybeans but I think they are also high energy foods):

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Dehulled Soybean Meal, Wheat Middlings, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Soybean Oil, Rice Bran Oil, Salt, Yeast Culture, Monocalcium Phosphate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, L-Lysine, DL-Methionine, Biotin, Stabilized Rice Bran, Ground Flax Seed, Copper Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Cobalt Proteinate, Calcium Iodate, Cobalt Carbonate, Selenium Yeast, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Dried Saccharomyces Cerevisea Fermentation Solubles, Brewers Dried Yeast, Yucca Schidigera, Hydrated Sodium Calcium Aluminosilicate, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Folic Acid, Choline Chloride, Niacin, Riboflavin Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamin Mononitrate, Vitamin B12 Supplement.

I know he doesn't get very much, but I've learned in the last few years that even a little can be the problem! The Equine Oprem is good until you get to the last few ingredients.....GRAINS! Many people are using customized vitamin/mineral mixes that contain no grains nowadays.

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Though I agree movement is important I know 20+ horses that receive much less turn-out than him and are healthier than him.

Are they Fjords? He was bred on a farm where they receive 24hr turnout. I see a lot of horses through trimming and I can tell you that the animals who receive 24hr turnout with adequate forage are always healthier then animals who are stalled 12hrs of the day.

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The only probably with 24/7 turn-out is that we have a lot of coyotes in our area, who are very brave. I don't think Wissy or I could bare the thought of the little fur ball outside at night with a chance that coyotes could harm him. The stable I work at up the road has lost 7 cats to coyotes.

He's a horse, who hates dogs as I recall??? There's a big difference between a cat and a horse. BTW, if you have coyotes at night they are definitely around during the day. I also have coyotes within a very close proximitiy and we've never had a problem - even with free range chickens! I believe the horses keep the coyotes away. I had baby coyotes watching me up close when I was picking wild mushrooms in the woods this summer only a few kms from my house, so I know they are here and we hear them howling all the time. If Gunnar was an animal who was ill, very small and sickly then I would be concerened, but he's a 14hh brick shithouse who hates dogs - I'd be afraid for the 50LB coyote who tries to challenge him! Coyotes primarily eat small mammels. When we hear of them killing livestock its usually sheep, especially lambs!

Have you talked with UPEI? Hopefully the new vet will have some ideas for you.

[quote="Barefoot_Horsegirl"]

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Though I agree movement is important I know 20+ horses that receive much less turn-out than him and are healthier than him.

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Are they Fjords? He was bred on a farm where they receive 24hr turnout. I see a lot of horses through trimming and I can tell you that the animals who receive 24hr turnout with adequate forage are always healthier then animals who are stalled 12hrs of the day.

I 100% agree. Sorry, that was a bad comparison. I what I meant was that he has a much healthier, natural environment and lifestyle than the horses I work with but yet he is sick twice as much as the other horses, makes me scratch my head all the time!
None of these horses are Fjords, they are all warmbloods.

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but he's a 14hh brick shithouse who hates dogs - I'd be afraid for the 50LB coyote who tries to challenge him!

Hahaha love the description :) He does have a dislike for some dogs, but is terrified of long haired shaggy dogs. I know it sounds odd, but my friend's lab can come running at him barking like a guard dog and he doesn't flinch, she even gives him kisses, but if a large shaggy dog ie the neighbors Bernese mountain dog comes towards him he has a fit and is terrified! Even my own lab, who he only met once came towards him barking and same thing, no reaction. Sorry way off topic, but this is something I have noticed.

Last summer, at the stable I work at we had coyotes come into the barn. They left a dropping and freaked one horse out so much that she kicked the latch off her door. I understand that it is unlikely they would come after a horse, but the coyotes around here seem really brave and that doesn't make me uncomfortable.


Here's the other thing, if left out over night would he eat himself sick? He never leaves the round bale... little piggie.

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Have you talked with UPEI? Hopefully the new vet will have some ideas for you.

We have not been in contact with UPEI, I have been trying to figure how to do so. I would just want to get in contact with a vet to see if they think he needs further care. But I assume that they cannot make much judgment unless they see the horse themselves. ??
We are also getting a new vet so I would first like to see their opinion on his health as well. They have a facility which can handle overnight care of a horse too.

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I know he doesn't get very much, but I've learned in the last few years that even a little can be the problem! The Equine Oprem is good until you get to the last few ingredients.....GRAINS! Many people are using customized vitamin/mineral mixes that contain no grains nowadays.

I agree on the little can = a lot. He is the smallest horse ( height wise) I have worked with so finding the appropriate ration for him is not what I am used to but I have def learned. Myself, I am not sure what his rations should be, I know they should be small. I know he doesn't need anything that is rich or to encourage energy or weight, after that I'm stuck until we get further testing. I would hate to see him back on a grain, unless I knew it was recommended by a vet and it did not encourage energy. He went all summer working 4 days a week and competing without being on a grain, only hay stretch and he was more than fine.
Like I said, until we know what is up with his system I think reassessing his diet will come later.

I missed the grain ingredients in Equine Oprem. I assumed it was a multi vitamin since it is in a powder form.But reading it again, I do see the final ingredients. Our vet told us to feed it to him since he was lacking certain vitamins/minerls after blood tests were done.
http://www.jimlewisagri.ca/html/equine-o-prem.php

Where do they get this mix? Do they make it themselves? How do they know they are appropriate for their horse?
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Last summer, at the stable I work at we had coyotes come into the barn. They left a dropping and freaked one horse out so much that she kicked the latch off her door. I understand that it is unlikely they would come after a horse, but the coyotes around here seem really brave and that doesn't make me uncomfortable.

What makes me uncomfortable is the thought of a horse trapped in a stall and not being able to use its main form of protection against a predator - flight.

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Here's the other thing, if left out over night would he eat himself sick? He never leaves the round bale... little piggie.

He should have forage in front of him 24/7, all horses are 'piggies' really. Free choice hay is one of the biggest colic preventatives IMO. No, standing at a round bale is not the best, I prefer ground level feeding so they can chew properly and round bales are usually dusty. Would some of slow feeders TC's posted work for you? A couple of hockey net pillows are easy to make and cheap. He'd still have the round bale but it may encourage him to move a bit.

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Where do they get this mix? Do they make it themselves? How do they know they are appropriate for their horse?

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I've read good things about:
https://www.dynamitemarketing.com/Order.asp?InvDispCatID=3&InvDispSubCatID=29

but upon further review they also have wheat bran in the ingredients. I know you can get away with free choice kelp and dolomite offered in seperate containers so the horse can eat as much of each that he wants. Some people offer freechoice DE (natural wormer and contains trace minerals), copper, etc. Unless you know what your horse is lacking its hard to know if they are 'appropriate', but I try to listen to what my horses tell me and I think they know what their lacking best. I'm using Coop minovit loose minerals at the moment. I've used kelp in the past. I want to start offering Redmond salt.

How is the poor boy doing now ?????

Barefoot- Wissy, Firebug and I were thinking about making a slow feeder, just buying a hockey net and putting it around the round bale. Not sure if it would work but we will hopefully try! Gunnar is a bit of a brat when it comes to breaking/ wrecking things, so we'll see if the hockey nets hold up! lol He has one of those big black bungee cords around his water bucket in his stall....
I have wanted a slow feeder for a long time but couldn't figure out how to make one that would work for us. Hopefully we can get one made soon.

CB4- The furball is ok, dirty but ok. I don't feel like he is 100% himself , but he is doing ok. I find him a little more quiet than normal.
He was very sookey tonight when I visited him, very snugly and kissie. He makes sure I only brushed his fav spots. I didn't get down to see him for a few days, ( usually I'm there everyday) so I think he's hamming it up a little bit.