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Tango



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PostSubject: hoof talk - club foot   Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:12 am

finally got some new pics. You can see where the heel doesn't touch the ground. I wonder if I need to let it grow to that point that it touches? Then measure and try and maintain that height. I'll have to remember to talk to the farrier next time he is here. Anyone else know much about clubs? He is fairly comfortable at this height, with only a slight hitch to his trot. He is willing under saddle, but I'm not working him hard and I can tell when he is getting to the point where he has had enough....


From about two years ago - I could not find a farrier all winter and this is just before the one I have now started trimming.


The hoof wall although improving is too thin to hold a shoe so that is out for the time being - although I don't rule it out for the future. He was good last winter and I have him on the 24hr turnout, and has buddies now. He was alone here for the first two years, and I have noticed an improvement this last year - until the rotten thrush infection and abscesses this summer. Talked to the farrier about x-rays and he doesn't think we need them at this point, not much different we can do... not sure if massage or supplements would be a benefit or not?
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Barefoot_Horsegirl

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PostSubject: Re: hoof talk - club foot   Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:50 am

Eeeek, the first picture just makes me cringe. Poor boy. How much time between the two pics? You farrier has made imprvements. He's not weighting the heel at all so I would start with regular thrush treatments. Use something like white lightning or clean trax on a weekly basis. You can spray with 'magic spray" which is ACV mixed with TTO between treatments as well.

X-Rays would be helpful, but costly.

Looks like he has some diet issues going on as well. What is his diet like?

From the research I've done massage can be very helpful with a club foot. Often the problem lies in the shoulder.

How long are you going between trims? A horse like this needs to be trimmed regularly with minor trims that just slightly tweak as the issues come up. You can not allow this foot to grow beyond where it is supposed to be or you will not correct anything.
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Tango



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PostSubject: Re: hoof talk - club foot   Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:35 am

My farrier has shown me where to file. At first I was very scared of taking too much. Now each week I run the file over it to try and maintain. Actual farrier visits vary depending on time of year with eight weeks as the average.

He is on pasture and now that it is getting thin, hay at night. I give him literally and handful of fat and fibre - just cause we feed the young pony and the old mare gets a bit of feed to put her bute in. Winter is all the hay they can eat.

It is about two years between the two pics. I have kept photos the whole way along. He has a fairly thick scar over the coronary band on that foot.

Also the farrier noted a higher heel on his good foot this last trim. I had noticed he would no flex to that side the last few weeks, although that seems to have resolved this week, so he may have hurt or pulled something there..... horses, never simple :-0

Just for info: he was brought to NB from Alberta as a weanling/yearling by a woman. She had left them (she bought five weanling/yearlings can't remember exactly) at a feed lot type thing while they moved back. A couple months later she was called and told she had to get the babies as they were starving. She had them trailered to Thunder Bay where she met the trailer. They were in rough shape. I can't remember is she said two of them or three of them did die they were so malnourished. So he has had some issues in his life. He is an easy keeper.

Thanks, it is hard to find good info. Lots of "stuff" on the internet, but hard to sort out the good info from the bad when you are a novice.
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PostSubject: Re: hoof talk - club foot   Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:18 am

I love the fact that we have some serious skilled experts on our board........there is always one of us who knows the correct answer. :cowboyhound.gi

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munchmom



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PostSubject: Re: hoof talk - club foot   Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:01 pm

My mare Jazz has a club foot which I had always been told was genetic. I went to a Pete Ramey clinic and he told me to check her shoulder. Sure enough when I got my daughter to hold her mane out of the way so I could see both shoulders, she had absolutely no muscle on the side that was her club foot side.

I could have kicked myself. One chiropractic treatment and I had to rasp down the foot because her range of motion was so much better. I only wish I had started the treatments before she was four years old I might have been able to reverse a lot of the damage.

She is an embryo transfer mare in southern Alberta now and she functions quite well as a broodie and really had few issues with the foot when we rode her.

I now have a barefoot trimmer that has done amazing things with my horse's feet. She has brought Munch's 13 years of neglect to a completely normal hoof and I would love to see what she would do with Jazz' club foot. My farrier, back in the day, did nothing to help the foot although I can't say that he made it any worse.

Not sure that this info will help you any. I did see an improvement with the chiro and also found that massage helped. How old is he?? Jazz had an injury - bounced off a wire fence as a baby - that we think was what caused her problem although we did not realize it until Pete told me what to look for in the shoulder.
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Tango



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PostSubject: Re: hoof talk - club foot   Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:15 pm

My guy is 9 I think... I'd have to check his papers.

What grade club did she have? Tango's is a 3 on a scale of 1 to 4.

Strange coincidence - Tango was kept intact till he was four, and one of his babies is named Jazz - she went back to AB with the family. Tango was gelded and then sold - the woman who bought him had him a year or so and did not have the time to train him. So that is how we ended up with him. He was at auction but the price was so low so she did not sell him. A friend saw him and told us about him. He has been with us now for four years.

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TripleCRanch



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PostSubject: Re: hoof talk - club foot   Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:14 pm

Do you have a picture of the sole of that hoof? I need a heel shot too as well to see.
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Tango



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PostSubject: Re: hoof talk - club foot   Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:17 pm

This was the sole about a month ago. I am actually surprised at how much better it is. Tomorrow when the light is better I will try and get a new pic. The frog has filled in near the heel and when I run the file over the foot it actually hits the frog now. I have worked him lightly this week several times and he barely has a hitch right now. I have attached the pic I took yesterday. The heel is touching the ground, but it is a little longer. This is five weeks post trim with me running the file over it a few times since.



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TripleCRanch



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PostSubject: Re: hoof talk - club foot   Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:22 pm

If you could get a shot like this, would be great :-)









These hooves are on my colt, right before I did a trim.

I did not get a chance to get some sole shots. But I did get a chance to grab this shot before I had to go in and tend to the kids.

Before Trim


After Trim

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Barefoot_Horsegirl

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PostSubject: Re: hoof talk - club foot   Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:43 am

Don't know if Hugahorse will see this but she has a tutorial on how to take great pics so we can really see whats going on with the hoof (pic angles make a huge difference).

That side on shot you posted from a month ago you just posted is perfect.

It looks like you can back the heels a bit more, not lower. A shot like Triple C is suggesting would be beneficial. Are you rasping the sole?
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Tango



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PostSubject: Re: hoof talk - club foot   Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:09 pm

Ok, best I can do by myself. Sole shot followed by a sole shot showing where I file.



Then a couple more from the angle I thought you wanted.



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Barefoot_Horsegirl

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PostSubject: Re: hoof talk - club foot   Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:31 pm

Perfect! Do you have a set of knives? He has a lot of bar material that needs to be dealt with. You can open up the heel bulb triangles a little bit more, just a tiny bit. Your outside heel is higher and can use another swipe.
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TripleCRanch



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PostSubject: Re: hoof talk - club foot   Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:50 pm

You have sole that is higher than the wall at the toe. Bars that need cleaned up..and a lot of jamming going on.

I will look these over and get back to you !

If I were you. I would go ahead and get those x-rays done up..
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Hug a Horse Farm



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PostSubject: Re: hoof talk - club foot   Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:53 pm

I suspect there is much bone deformity by now. but that doesn't mean improvements can't be made but without x-rays this is a foot for an experienced trimmer. Not that you aren't doing some things well, it's just to get the foot to its maximum potential, to direct its new growth toward a more balanced coffin bone, a set of x-rays would really help. And some knives. the rasp tends to go too forward and lower the toe, which you really don't want to do. A serious amount of arch at he back of the foot would encourage heel expansion and bulb development (he hasn't really got bulbs right now!)
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Tango



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PostSubject: Re: hoof talk - club foot   Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:12 pm

Thanks, I don't touch it except to run the rasp over it between trims. My farrier doesn't touch the toe or the sole around the toe. To get x-rays I will have to take him to Fredericton and I don't have a trailer, so have been putting it off.

I really appreciate the help, I hope to have the farrier come again soon as his foot seems to be growing quite quickly.
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TripleCRanch



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PostSubject: Re: hoof talk - club foot   Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:25 pm

May I ask who your farrier is?
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Tango



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PostSubject: Re: hoof talk - club foot   Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:26 am

lol, I don't think I'll put it on a public forum, he is really good. He just has to travel a long way to get here so don't have him come for just one horse. I need to better educate myself on how to maintain this darn foot between trims - and will discuss any ideas with him you folks put forth. I think he trimmed the bars off when he was here, and that was only four weeks ago and they have grown back very quickly. I may enlist my hubby's help if I have to start using a knife - I'd probably end up needing stitches! It is so discouraging as he seemed really sound all winter then about June started limping. Farrier came, drained an abcess, got a bit better, then worse. Had the vet in, antibiotics and coppersept..... he has slowly gotten better and this last couple weeks has been pretty good but after about half an hour light riding I know he is starting to get sore, so that is when we stop. He is such a great little horse, I just want to do the best I can for him with the limited resources I have. Thank you all for taking the time to look at this. It gets really discouraging.... I see the woman I bought him from now and then and she is always surprised he has trouble, she's had club foot horses before and they were never lame and he was fine with her, but then again he was never worked.
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TripleCRanch



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PostSubject: Re: hoof talk - club foot   Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:47 am

I don't want to be mean. I would get a new farrier asap. As well as x-rays...you need to know where the nose of the P3 is. We don't want to be taking a knife to it it until you know where that bone is laying or pointing. I think I know why the hoof is built up right there. It's to protect the tip of that bone...but again..without -xrays its hard to know.

Do you know what I mean by a Bevel? For now, your just to follow this line with your rasp at a 45 degree angle...you have length to deal with but..first things first..you just want to improve is here for now.

Your bars..just bring them down carefully to the sole and up towards the heel platforms in a smooth motion. If the hoof is hard..just take your time..and shave it down carefully...don't take any heel at this moment in time other than to take 2 or 3 even strokes on that heel (left side of the picture ). I am guessing he is sore, because he is landing toe first vs landing heel first. Poor boy!! We will get him comfortable!


If you were to take this hoof in your hand. Close your eyes..now run your thumbs along the wall..you will be able to feel that the sole is higher than the wall at the moment. Which is causing jamming..therefore leading to bruising and the abcessing..one or the other.. Your goal right now..would be to slowly ( as the hoof is ready ) to get that sole just below the level of the wall.






Just by setting that bevel will be a big plus....shape...form = function.

I know this isn't much..but hopefully you can do this...don't get a knife on that sole at the toe..thats protection right now for that bone..It could be any where.


I sent you a PM..pm me if you have any questions!

I will be glad to help out any way I can.
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Barefoot_Horsegirl

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PostSubject: Re: hoof talk - club foot   Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:58 am

Tango, how far are you from Moncton? Dr. Randy Hayward has a portable x-ray machine and is a lameness vet. I would also call Dr. Laura Lee....I'm going to paste an email I received from her:

Quote :
I am a licensed veterinarian, and I am certified in chiropractic by
>> the American Veterinary Chiropractic Association. The initial
>> chiropractic fee is about $130, and I also charge a travel/mileage fee
>> as well per horse, which would be about $60, plus tax. I do more than
>> just chiropractic, as I have taken a number of advanced courses. I
>> also do Applied Kinesiology, some neuromuscular techniques, some deep
>> tissue work, some massage therapy, and some osteopathic techniques as
>> well. These are included in the fee, unless it takes me more time
>> than expected. The initial exam also includes a basic lameness
>> evaluation, so I like to see the horse walk in hand, and longed at the
>> trot or in hand. The initial session usually takes about 1- 1 1/2
>> hours.

I'm really interested in getting her to come and work on my horse. She MAY offer x-ray as well, I wouldn't be surprised. Nowadays digital x-rays are getting more and more common. Massage is supposed to be really beneficial with these horses. You can trim all you want, but if the problem lies in the shoulder no amount of trimming will correct it without body work.

Using knives are really not as bad as you think. Wear gloves, you won't cut yourself.
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Tango



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PostSubject: Re: hoof talk - club foot   Sat Oct 29, 2011 4:57 pm

I'm between Saint John and Fredericton. I spoke to Jess Johnstone awhile ago and really want to get her to come, but life has a way of changing plans lol. Everytime I think Ok can do it now, something else pops up lol.

I gave bevelling a try and shaved a bit off the bars using a pocket knife - I'll get my farrier to show me how when he is here, I'm still scared of "hurting" him - using a knife on something living isn't something I've done before.

I'm trying to keep this all straight - the sole is not supposed to touch the ground, but the walls are not bearing all the weight?? Bevelling puts more weight on the sole doesn't it?

Thanks again.
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TripleCRanch



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PostSubject: Re: hoof talk - club foot   Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:47 pm

Right now all your wanting to do is shape the hoof at the moment. At the moment the sole is bearing all the weight.
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Tango



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PostSubject: Re: hoof talk - club foot   Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:11 am

When the vet was here he suggested x-rays, apparently Fredericton has a portable. When I called to ask, the receptionist told me I would have to bring the horse there, so not sure what the story really is. So if you had to choose between having x-rays or having say a massage therapist come in, what would anyone here pick?

Quote :
I am guessing he is sore, because he is landing toe first vs landing heel first. Poor boy!! We will get him comfortable!
Thanks TripleC, that is one of the nicest things I've heard for him in a long time!!
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TripleCRanch



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PostSubject: Re: hoof talk - club foot   Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:44 pm

Anytime Tango! There is hope for him.

If it were me...I would pick x rays first. To see what is going on inside that hoof, then go from there.

A horse with a club foot can be maintained and be sound :-)
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PaintedRidge

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PostSubject: Re: hoof talk - club foot   Sun Oct 30, 2011 5:56 pm

Hi Tango

Go with the x-rays, they will tell all and give you a great starting point on how to start correcting things. As you know I am speaking from experience. Dr Lee is wonderful really helped Ridge. But the x-rays are so important to know what is going on inside the hoof. PS I don't want to say too much but I have ridden Ridge on the trails both last weekend and this weekend with his corrective shoes. Fingers crossed he will stay sound for awhile.
Chin up I know how heart breaking this can be!
Hugs, Kim and Ridge
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Flicka



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PostSubject: Re: hoof talk - club foot   Sun Oct 30, 2011 10:57 pm

For the x-ray, I've had the Moncton provincial vets come to the barn and do X-rays of Flicka's stifle with a portable x-ray. They had to go and request it from one of the other vet's office, but it worked as slick as anything.
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