Foot Question

First time posting, but I've been lurking for a while. I recognize a few of you from another board, but just wanted to say hello to you all!

But to the business at hand: My gelding came to me with long toes, under-run heels, and very contracted heels. I pulled his shoes and rasped his feet back and basically left him to grow out with a few touch ups and farrier visits, and it has been almost a year and his feet are in some aspects great. However, his hinds grow bulges on the outside and make him toe out, the farrier comes out and rasps them back and for a little while he looks great and walks great but once they start growing again it toes him out. When he starts toe-ing he gets wonky in the hind end, almost like he has weak ankles. Conformational wise he does not toe out, the problem lies in his feet. It's like one side grows faster than the other, and tips his hooves, if that makes any sense at all lol. I don't know if it's the angles or what, all I know for sure is that it does not feel right and it doesn't look right and after he gets trimmed he is fine, once they grow in he is unbalanced. Also, I love my farrier but he does not do a natural trim, he shoes, and when I get my gelding trimmed, he trims them like he is going to shoe them, it is what he knows and I won't knock him for that, but I want my horse to be trimmed more naturally. My farrier was out two weeks ago and shaped the wall of T's hinds, and trimmed the toe back of his fronts, and thinned his soles, but left the wall, so it all chipped and tore off within a day or two and wore down oddly and it looks like he hasn't seen a farrier in months. As well, his fronts are upright with a long heel and short toe (like you would see with a shod show horse) but his back are low-heeled and sloping, and I can't see that being balanced at all... I know this is hard to visualize so I made a craptastic MSpaint drawing, keep in mind the farrier did not cut him like this, he shapes his front feet like that but the hind naturally stay shaped in the 'side-on' pic, and the farrier leaves them alone, except for those bulges.



Anyways, ideally I'd like to be able to trim his feet up myself, rasping them when needed to maintain their length and shape, but I really don't know where to start. I also have a pony who was *always* trimmed by a barefoot trimmer and he is in need of a trim soon and I want to continue to keep his feet natural, his feet are perfect aside from the walls being a tad overgrown, I don't want to get a farrier out who only shoes and have him reshape his hooves. Any ideas??

Hi, welcome to the forum.., I would just like to say that if your farrier does not trim the way you like, you should change..you seem to have a great respect for him, but, you pay him for a service, you should be satisfied....If you keep him, ask him to do a mustang roll on the hooves, that will prevent to chipping, and thinning the soles is a big no no...You could discuss this with him( if you have not already), he might surprise you and do a trim you would like....has for the rest of your questions, I will leave that to the very experienced Barefoot trimmers on here... You should try to post pictures of his feet, that would be great to get the advice you need..
Good luck, keep us posted..

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thinned his soles, but left the wall, so it all chipped and tore off within a day or two and wore down oddly and it looks like he hasn't seen a farrier in months.

This is polar opposite of what needs to be done...which I think you reconize already.

Obviously THINNING is counter productive and will just lame the horse. Leaving the walls? Why? TO do what they will did, chip off. Which is good in a way, so the horse is not holding itself up on the walls (creating flares, and many other issues), however, to be chipped off only to lay a thin sole on the ground, is not good either.


This is why so many horses are thought to "Need" boots or shoes due to being sore. OR, this is also a reason many tend to think a horse will "Wear its feet down to bloddy nubs" without something covering them....

We create the problems.

The fronts from your drawing says the walls are too tall and so are the heels, but a good picture of the frog would tell more. The hinds look ok, but are being allowed to flare.

Once someone gets your horse set up properly, a regular 2 week touch up rasp job will keep them in good shape once you learn your horse's proper shape and measurements. :)

I personally think he thins the soles and leaves the wall in the premise that a shoe would be tacked to the wall, despite the fact I don't shoe, if you know what I mean. He is an older man, and quite set in his ways (as most older men are lol) I love him because he is very patient and great with the horses, there is not a rough bone in his body, but he is not a natural trimmer, and sadly I do not like the way he trims my horse. I have no problem shoeing horses, but imho you can't cut a horses hoof to be shod then leave them barefoot, they are two completely different ways of going.

The hinds are great aside from that buldge thing and slightly contracted frogs. He came with his heels so low and his toes so long I was able to rasp the toes back and maintain his heels, once they got into proper 'natural' proportions, they stayed that way. But those fronts, eek.

I will post some pics this evening.

Okay, photo overload, I hope these are all sized properly!! Also, excuse the mud, after the rain the last few days my paddocks are soup and it is very hard to keep hooves clean when everything is such a mess! T is also shedding his frogs, so those chunks are frog, not mud. Tomorrow I am purchasing a rasp and tackling those fronts, they look deplorable. Regardless, I hope this helps.

Fronts:
(you can see he is starting to flare out from the walls being so long, despite most of them chipping off, as well as how long his heels are, even though they are underslung)




(these two are actually the RIGHT fore, when I labeled I was thinking my left, not the horses. -dur-)




Hinds:
(you can't really notice the bulges on the outside, as he was just trimmed a little over two weeks ago)




(here you can really see the bulges on the outer edges of the hooves)

Looks like the fronts are growing out a fungas, or a separation of some sort...the top inch looks like much better, tighter growth.


The heels are deinitly high on the fronts. The grooves should only be about 3/4 of and inch deep...ONce brought down, the heel will natually move back in terms of where it bares the weight, and the "unslung" will no longer be the case.

Frogs look good, but would be fuller if they had better ground contact. At least he's not contracted. :)

Hinds look great, just flaring some (and the same 3/4 of an inch should be used for a measurement..)... Keep that flare relieved, (Not weight bearing on the wall in that area) and it will grow out tight again.

Nothing too pressing... pretty good feet to work with really. An easy fix.

Depending on the horse, it may not handle sugars well. Whether it is coming from feed, grass or hay. Has the diet changed at all in the past couple months?

His fronts flare really easily I have noticed, would that be attributed to the sugars? I am going to switch him to Fat and Fiber as he gets HOT AS Bleeding heart off feed if given an ounce too much, and will lose weight if given an ounce not enough when in work. I switched him to Purina Sweetena in mid-winter, so it's not 'new' feed, but he has always been on sweet feed so maybe you are right, he can't handle the sugars.

Can you just rasp the heels off or do they need to be cut? I rasped his fronts down so he is walking on the white line with his walls lifted trying to combat the flares, haven't tackled the backs yet but I will do the same. I just don't want to do anything to intrusive, I leave that to the professionals.

Become your own professional...seriously, educate yourself and ask lots of questions (like you're doing here). Maybe get a barefoot trimmer in for the first few trims then keep it up yourself. Lots of information on this site, just start reading :) http://www.equinextion.com/

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Can you just rasp the heels off or do they need to be cut?

I only use a rasp and knife, don't even own nippers. Just rasp a little bit every 2 weeks or so till the heels come back to where they should be. It will take a little time because they are so far forward.

Even if your horse isn't sensitive to sugars, sweetfeed is not a good choice. Too much crap that horses don't need. I don;t have the problem of feeding a "working" horse so I can't comment on what to feed in its place but I would say fat-n-fibre would definately be a few steps up from sweetfeed.

Did you contact Anne Louise?

I would stay away from Fat & Fibre too. Why not go with something like soaked unmolassed beet pulp, flax, BOSS and timothy/alfalfa hay cubes? How much hay is he currently getting?

I did contact Anne Louise, eagerly waiting her reply!
I'd love to put him on something like that for feed, but trying to track down good quality ingredients is next to impossible. The flax and BOSS aren't bad, but I seriously think someone at the co-op might have a massive coronary if a batch of anything went out without molasses in it. I am willing to try to mix him up something myself if it would put weight on him and I can find quality. Premixed feeds aren't perfect but neither are DIY with crap. If he is outside he gets free choice hay and pasture, when he comes in he gets as much hay as he can eat.

Thanks for the site, Dexy! "Working horse" is not so much what mine are, when they are 'in work' it means I am riding them once or twice a week and not pounding the food to them. This guy is probably heavier now than he ever was, but he hasn't an ounce of fat on him, looks like he's race weight. I like fat!!! He'd look amazing with another 75 pounds on him, he's too standardbred-looking, how dare he lol.

[quote] The flax and BOSS aren't bad, but I seriously think someone at the co-op might have a massive coronary if a batch of anything went out without molasses in it.


really????, if that person cannot support their customers, they should not work at the COOP...Bay-Lee is on BOSS, and Flax seed, he also gets pro-biotics every spring, he is a hard keeper, but has no problem keeping on the weight, he also has 24/7 hay..If the COOP is not happy, find you feed somewhere else, I buy my BOSS at a local flower shop, much cheaper, and its the same brand has the COOP..

i just mean that 99% of everything food wise sold there is molasses covered. Its as if they can not physically leave it out lol.

I get my feed from a purina dealer, but I do not think she supplies individual things, just the mixes.

I get my molasses free beet pulp from a Purina dealer so they do carry it. You store may just have to special order it in for you.

SexyDexy wrote:

I get my molasses free beet pulp from a Purina dealer so they do carry it. You store may just have to special order it in for you.

Me too, in NS as well, so hopefully they can order it for you. I've seen BOSS at a lot of stores (Wal Mart, Canadan Tire, Costco). You should be able to get Valley Flax from your Coop or Shur Gain, and one or the other should carry timothy/alfalfa hay cubes. Does he have access to loose minerals? Nobody is telling you to feed him DIY crap. I have no idea where you would buy beet pulp other then a feed store and the same goes for hay cubes in bulk. As far as I know these items would be bulk bagged in a plant somewhere (maybe Moncton or somewhere in NS?) and shipped by truck to your individual store.

Can you post a body pic?

Nobody is telling you to feed him DIY crap I didn't mean it in a bad way, just that if I can't get quality ingredients then I'd rather feed him a mid-market mix. I'll have to ask my dealer about the beetpulp. Flax and BOSS are easy enough. I want my horse healthy and fat, and what ever I can do within my means to have that, I'll do.


These were taken a couple days ago:




It's hard to tell in the picture, but to stand next to him he is bigger than he ever was, despite being so lean. He built up so much in the shoulder I needed to buy him a thinner saddle pad, the massive thick built-up pad he had was making the saddle pinch, it's a FQH bar saddle. I just don't like seeing ribs on him, I know he isn't starving but he looks it and that unsettles me.

He is up to date on deworming and his teeth are fine, he just burns off everything he eats and more, but he is so hot and full of energy I can't up his feed. I wish I had his metabolism.

I really think the BOSS and flax seed will do him good,does he have free choice hay??, and like someone else said, he should have free choice minerals available to him..Did he ever get some pro-biotics??, that might be something to think about,....Keep us updated..

eta: My barn owner had trouble putting weight on a yearling, the vet suggested Soya Bean meal, the differnce in one week is night and day, ..something else to think about.. :)

He is on free choice hay/pasture and has a mineral lick in his stall, he doesn't come in often but I find he doesn't really touch it, every so often he will take a huge bite out of it and not touch it again for a month. I bought a huge bag of BOSS today, so we will see how he likes that.

Where did she get the soya meal? I would think that would be really high in protein, and I need to watch his protein intake, but a little bit every so often wouldn't hurt him for sure.

you can get it at the COOP, she got hers at Miramachi feeds ..The vet recommended it for any horse that has a hard time putting on weight around the back and shoulder areas.....If Rude reads this topic, she might be able to add more, but please speak with your vet before, just to make sure...How are his feet??, did you do anything with them yet??

I rasped the wall off and rounded it up all around the foot on the fronts so he is walking on the white line. I haven't done too much with his heels as I don't want to get 'rasp happy' but they are levelish with his frog currently, maybe slightly higher, it's been just over a week now so I am going to rasp him a little more in that area tomorrow. I also took the rasp to his hinds, they aren't too bad so I pulled the rasp over the whole underside of the hoof to tidy them up and level them to the white line then filed back the wall in his flares so it doesn't come in contact with the ground. I basically did what TC suggested and any where he flared I rasped it off the ground and he stands on the white line with the wall rounded out upwards so it takes no weight.

It freaks me out to do it as I am worried I am going to go too short or something when I get close to the white line, so it probably isn't as far back as it should be for a first trim, but I'd rather take a bit off and turn him loose and see how he moves for a day or two and try again than get ahead of myself and have him dead lame and hate getting his feet touched. That's my luck, you see, so baby steps for now until I am more knowledgeable.

Though I did have a nice 'practice' session on my pony. His feet are already in the performance barefoot shape, he was just due for a trim of the walls, so I rasped him up neatly. It is so nice to have one already done like this, as if I get stuck with the big guy I have a 'model' to compare to. I knew the pony was good for something besides eating grass!

I will have to call the vet about the soy, T can't be overloaded with protein as he stocks up too badly, the extra protein makes it so much worse. He needs 24/7 turnout.

I believe soy is high in NSC's and can play havoc on hormones with certain horses (humans too). Something like 85% of the worlds soy is genetically modified. Did he like the BOSS?

Why don't you post after pics and we can tell you if you rasped enough? He looks a little lean in your confo pics buts they are at a tough angle to get a good representation of what he really loooks like.

You may want to add just regular loose minerals to a feeder/bucket in his stall. A salt/mineral lick and loose minerals are different.

[quote]I believe soy is high in NSC's


I dont beleive so, the barn owner ask the vet to be sure it wont make him hot, and that its not full of sugar..I could be wrong..But I highly dought she would feed anything high in NSC,s..I will ask her to comment...

I could be wrong on the NSC's...I'm trying to find supporting info on the NSC's but I'm having trouble. Here are a few sites I've found to explain about the hormones and other issues:

http://forloveofthehorse.com/forum/index.php?topic=577.0

http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=190058&p=6622870&hilit=soy#p6622870

Hi Fiere and welcome...good for you wanting better for your horse...first thing front hooves show diet problem which are are already aware of...sometimes it's not only the feed but the pasture..here I have a clover (rich in sugars) problem ..so have to be very careful as to what I feed when wanting to put weight on a horse..BOSS FLAX (fats)AND ALFALFA cubes(high in protein 20-25%) AND BEET PULP(fiber) loose minerals would be my number one suggestion but alfalfa also being high in sugars so need something else for added protein (foal was weaned at 4months) which is why my vet suggested soybean meal (36-45%protein-no sugars)..

second hind feet are generally not symmetrical in their medial-lateral (inside-outside) outline. The outside half is generally wider, due to different forces in the way the hind leg moves. Don't try to make them symmetrical!!!!! The toe will also be more pointed than a front toe....front hooves are round hind hooves more oval shaped

good luck and keep us posted

Since my *lovely* horse was being less than co-operative with his feet after his trim last night, I was only able to get a picture of the left fore foot. But all the rest are the same as far as flares and how they bear weight now.



You can easily see the wall separation around parts of his sole, but it looks a tonne better, I think. I didn't want to take too much more off him, his heels are about half the length that they were, so I think its a good start.If I take anymore off at this point I am getting into reshaping the foot, as the heels nee to be shortened on an angle tward the back which would make them shorter than the toe and I don't know how all that works. As it stands now, everything is pretty much level, when he stands he is putting weight on the white line and sole of the toe, white line around the sides, heels in the back and the frog is a fraction of an inch from being right on the floor. His backs are holding him up the same way only with a touch more frog, and I am working on those flares as well. Hopefully I can get another few pictures without the annoying kick-in-the-head threats of last night.

No worries Rude! His hinds are no symmetrical in the least and very much oval. I at least know that much about hooves lol. I only want the outsides to be filed down so that he doesn't flare out anymore.

I found out yesterday that Soy-bean "meal", had 9.3% natural occuring sugar and less than 1% starch..So this might be a good way to keep the weight on and not bother the feet.. His foot looks pretty good in that alst picture..