Hoof Questions

First off I just want to say that I don't want to know all the benefits of bare foot vs shoeing. I'm looking for info on my horses foot.

He was born with a slight clubbed foot it's not sraight up and down like most normal club feet it's normal on one side and flairs out on one side causing stress on his tendons in the one leg. his foot looks normal when it is first trimmed but then when it grows the one side looks normal and the other side grows out flaired. I put shoes on him in the summer cause he has sore feet on the gravel and I barrel race him. I find when I shoe him he travels better and seems more confortable when the shoes are off he is ouchy on the gravel and i find travels kinda weird. My farrier says that his foot is getting worse. I'm worried this is going cause him to be lame and unrideable(sp). I know with sever cases as babies the horses have their tendons cut to straighten out the leg but this wouldn't be an option for target and I don't think he needs it. does anyone have any experience with feet like this and if so what did you do to correct this? I may look at pulling his shoes year round if someone can provide me with proof that this would help him.

I am not one normally for inciting riots etc.............but you have several folks around that are really good with feet problems and how to resolve them. and its not just a matter of removing shoes.............my old abbey could hardly move, could hardly hold one leg up at at time to be trimmed without assistance everyone thought she had ...........................whatever the heck its called and that she should be put down....................well we found HUGAHORSE AND THEN GUNDRUN they do an all body health confirmation evaluation thing first and along with feet.............I think we have barefoot horsegirl also. and for sure TC knows lots..............but hugahorse and gundrun do it for a living.

Joan I'm not saying I wouldn't be interested in going barefoot for him if it would help I've just noticed that previously when people ask feet questions (including my self ) people jump right to "well the only way to trim a horse is barefoot and if you have shoes on your horse thats the problem or your farrier can't be very good". I know that shoes do not effect his condition as he seems to be better with shoes then without and that i have a very knowledgable farrier and have had more then one tell me the samething about his foot. I'm asking more for help on as to what to do with his leg and foot to keep him sound longer not to debate if barefoot is better then shoes ect. I need help with his hoof issue.

My farrier thinks his foot is getting worse (I wasn't there to ask him why or how to correct this) and I want to know what would cause this are the tendons getting more contracted???? is it his age? breeding? why now would his foot start to get worse when it's been the same for the last 7 years? I'm worried about him and don't want to ride a horse that is in any type of pain. My farrier when target has shoes puts a different size shoe on that foot compaired to the other front foot as it is a size bigger as well due to the flair.

Hey NBN... I know I already gave you an article on Club foot... but just chiming in to say, don't let anyone waiver you based on how they come across... I know it can get under a person's skin, so just blow that off, and take a second look... (no matter the question or method on health, training, tack etc)..

once you take a look, if you think it will work, then look further into the subject...if you know for sure it won't, then try another way. :)

The biggest thing I can suggest is educate yourself, so you can get involved in what the professional is doing and saying.
And another great tip, "If it's not working, then move on to something else"... ;)


Off topic a bit:
I know you mention that you barrel race and that is why you feel a horse (or your horse) can't go BF, however... that is changing as well..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5KtCjFVSxo

Two time Congress Champion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zl2gepvkpQ4

Regardless, I hope you find a method that works for your horse... We all like to see them feeling their best. :)

NMN...........I wasnt trying to be an arsehole or JUMP ALL OVER THE SHOELESS thing, its just the girls that I worked with with abbey didnt just chime off stuff regarding angles..........they had lots more to say in regard to the overall appearance of structure and muscles of the whole horse......compared to some of the farriers I had come accross they were demigoddesses..........hope you find what you need for him.

I won't be shy to call a couple different ferriers....To see there view.....There may be a differen't ferrier in you area that has a lot of knowledge with this situation.....

I don't know a lot about a club hoof and what would be the best way to correct it but having two different size shoes in the frount puts a red flag up!!!!Unless this is being done to help correct the problem ... If your horse is not being shod correctly then that is what can be causing him more problems then the club foot...By pulling his shoe off especially in the frount for the winter I would think would set him back a step...If your horse is shod the wrong way for a while that can cause problems...I would think your horse may need frount shoe for the rest of his life to keep him comfortable and going well....

He may need a special pad on to equal him out so he does not grow the flair.....It would be like cutting tendeons but you are not you are artifically straighting him out...

I would call ferriers...I don't think going barefoot will help your situation...

To me calling a different ferrier is like calling a different vet....You may see yourself changing ferriers....And don't feel bad if you have had this ferrier for years...Some know how to shoe but corrective shoeing is a whole different ball game..What is being done with your horse now is not what he needs he is telling you this because he is getting worse...

Hope this helps a bit!!

Call me old school but I think shoes still have there advantages! My guy is barefoot, but when he goes into training he will probably need shoes at least in the frount, so he dosen't wear is hooves down to much!

Hmmm I wrote a reply earlier and someone came to the door as I hit send.... and now it all gone

Our gelding has a club foot. More severe sounding than yours. We have gone both with shoes and barefoot he overreaches and tends to knock shoes off. Right now he is barefoot and we are trying to get some growth on the toe. We will see come spring if we shoe again or not.

Right now he is pretty good, ouchy going on hard ground, but looks good in the pasture. Runs and bucks and rears so can't be in too much pain. We ride him, mostly walk trot and he may limp a bit but seems willing and lively, I think the slight limp is a bit of stiffness as it gets better as he warms up and he has a shorter stride with that leg. Anytime he seems to be sore, we don't push it.

In the meantime what I am doing: he is on biotin at the farrier's suggestions - he thinks it is helping.... he gave me his old file and I swipe it across the heels every couple weeks to keep them at the height he is most comfortable. I just started him on MSM to see if that might help with any inflamation in around the coffin bone. He wears boots when we ride him. Where the toe isn't growing that means the circulation isn't good there, so I suspect the side of your horses foot that grows more slowly isn't getting good circulation. Exercise is good for that and my guy is out all day and I have started with the cooler weather to soak the foot in very warm water and massage around the top of the foot to encourage circulation - I don't know if it will help but certainly doesn't hurt and he seems to like it. Finding good information is tricky as everyone has a different opinion based on their experience but each horse is different I just want to keep my guy comfortable and rideable would be nice too.

And Oakie, the club foot is narrower so the shoes are different. My farrier made him his shoes and there was quite a difference. He did something to the edges though in hopes of helping the foot spread, the heel of the club foot looks similar to a contracted heel. I think that was what he said, I am new to all this.

A structure that is already not working properly for shock absorbtion, may not do too well by decreasing that absortion even further..

Yes, he may be too far gone to make sound without protection... That's a given.

However, ridged protection for an already compromised shock system, may be detrimental to his future health and usage (Regarding his joints and tendons). So I am in total agreeance that a case such as this still needs some intervention by a professional by providing some extra protection when needed.. ..however, the protection you choose to use could be your next important factor..

A boot would be ideal... Gives his foot a chance to expand and breathe properly while turned out on somewhat forgiving ground (Not muddy, but not frozen or rocky either), and the boots for riding or unforgiving ground.

However, there are not many, if ANY boots that will fit a club foot.

There are alternatives to that though. Hoof "Casting".. A material that is breathable, flexible, and still provides the protection needed..and depending on the wet conditions, they can stay on for 4 to 6 weeks.
You are not compromising his joints and tendons any further, and you are not having to nail the protection on, if his walls are compromised at all..(not sure if they are or not..)
They can easily be used for racing etc...as they provide the traction you are looking for..


(As for two diffent sized shoes mentioned... That is very important in a club foot case, because he does have two different feet.... Until and IF the hoof can fully extend and land properly...he will always have 2 different feet. )

oh I know the club foot would take a smaller shaped shoe....

I re read what NBN posted and she said she has a very smart ferrier, so I'm sure He will work things out right for the horse.....I had missed what she said about her ferrier and I was a bit worried that she may not have a ferrier that could help her out in her situation....

We deffiently put a lot of trust in our ferriers, our horses lives are in there hands...

I guess my horse is a weird case for a club foot cause that foot is actually the one that is bigger. It's hard to explain I wish I didn't just get his feet done just for the simple fact that you can see what I mean better then i can explain it. the hoof in question is the right front it grows normal on the inside and really flairs out on the outside (this is due to the tighter tendons I've been told by three different vary well known and very well respected farriers) However it was only the very last farrier that I've started using however that picked up that he needs two different size shoes (which I now understand because he was always losing the one shoe) I have a set of those boots I forget the name of them that come in the different sizes 1,2,3,4 ect. they actually fit both feet fairly well the larger one better then the smaller one. Unfortunately I live about 25 mins away from where he is boarded and can't get out every day to put boots on and take them off. He is in a small paddock right now with alot of mudd so he's not getting to run as much as i would like (hence the wanted add for a place with a field )
I didn't realise that his shoulders could effect his hoof growth until i started looking into this more. He has always moved with a hitchy step in that shoulder (when I say that i mean he doesn't fallow all the way threw from his shoulder on that side) can that effect his foot? and if so what should i do to try to fix this? I was always told that alot of qh's dont move 100% correctly out of their shoulder and that he's lazy and thats just the way he goes I never thought it could be an injury. Which makes me feel even worse for not picking up on it as I am usually the first person to look at a horse for across the arena and be able to pick out a lame step. I'm going to look into getting the chiroprator out to see him again he's had his foot like this since I got him at 2 and I had the chiroprator out when he was like 4 and they didn't pick up anything in his shoulder just his tail was out of alignment. I also have a friend that's friend is a horse massage therapist I might look into getting her out to do some massage on him too.

Oh and TC I know that not all barrel horses need shoes he's not even considered a barrel horse he would need to more then lope them to need barrel shoes lol. but he does need at least front shoes in the summer I try to do alot of hacking with him and he's very sore on the gravel in the barn drive way walking the trials ect.
Also up until acouple months ago when we got the new arena I was riding him in a smaller arena that was very hard crusher dust footing could this effect his foot as well? because it is a hard impact on the foot? I'm sorry i have so many questions I'm just worried now that the farrier feels that his foot is getting worse. He's only 9 and just getting to be a really great horse going really well and seeming really happy to be ridden.

Sorry NBN, I know you realized horses don't necessarily need them, but from your introduction to his hoof problem on the other board, I missread it as you felt you needed them just for the racing part..

Quote :

he needs shoes for barrel racing in the summer (not that he goes fast enought to really need them but oh well).

I was taking it as, he doesn't REALLY need them, but does because it is racing...thinking you were looking for more traction perhaps.. That is where I was going with it..the traction part.. :) Which is why I posted the videos of the young girl on her horses...


Anyhow...back on topic.. Makes sense you can't use boots... It is tough at times when you have them in the backard, yet alone miles ways... (I feel your pain on that one..I use to have to travel over an hour... :/ Sucked..

I really don't understand the true problem without seeing the feet... and conformation shots..this is where HAH would have to step in anyway.. Like I mentioned, I am not familar with Club feet. I can understand exactly what is taking place and why, however, the correction, is further up the leg, not so much in the foot.. (In many cases)

On a case like this, it may be a place you have too allow some alternative methods step in...like Massage, Chiro, Deep Tissue Massage as well...... etc...
You are getting many opinions already, It might be wise to keep getting them from a few other sources.. Take in all the info, and go with the one that makes sense for your horse's history, and the evidence shown and explained to you, in detail... And if anyone of those professionals do any work on him...go with what shows some imporvement.. (Most methods won't work after just one treatment, so being fair and giving the Chiropractor time, or the Massage therapist time, would be a good plan..)

You have already learned something new by asking more folks, like the Shoulder possibly being a cause... So that is a bonus already. :)



Theses types of statements...

Quote :

I was always told that alot of qh's dont move 100% correctly out of their shoulder and that he's lazy and thats just the way he goes I never thought it could be an injury.

Is what can get us into trouble... It is an excuse in some cases, for why things are the way they are, instead of a full explanation... We settle for an answer like this and accept that we were one of the unlucky ones to have a horse that falls in this category... and rarely give it a second thought..

I have heard many along the same lines... and the owners just chalk it up to bad luck, and never look further into why and how etc.. The horse lives with the condition that could very easily (in most cases) be turned around, or at least kept from getting any worse..

Kudos to you for looking deeper. :)

Quote :

(when I say that i mean he doesn't fallow all the way threw from his shoulder on that side) can that effect his foot? and if so what should i do to try to fix this?

Yes, it can absolutely effect his foot.. As for the fix...? That is where the alternative methods may come in... whatever it takes to increase his range of motion in the shoulder... Whatever it takes to may him comfortable to land on the back of his foot... It can all help him..

Good job NBN... :)

Quote :

We deffiently put a lot of trust in our ferriers, our horses lives are in there hands...

With the Internet and resources available today, there is no reason to hand your horses life over to your farrier, vet, etc. The key is owner education and knowing what's best for your horse. I think it takes a good team of professionals to keep a horse healthy (trimmer, vet, chiro, dentist, etc). Don't be afraid to ask questions and research, research, research! Alternative methods are VERY helpful and speed up the recovery time.

I personally don't think its a good idea to leave boots on during turnout. Feet sweat. Hopefully your ground freezes soon and the ruts fill with snow. Snow is really beneficial too.

Quote :

I didn't realise that his shoulders could effect his hoof growth until i started looking into this more.

Posture definetely affects the way the hooves grow. What if the foot is causing the shoulder issues and not the shoulder?

Its not really a shoe VS barefoot issue at all. A shod horse with a club foot needs to be trimmed correctly and often, just like a barefoot horse. The key is getting the trim right and keeping on top of it.

There are some good x-ray pics on this website showing the damage a club foot has compared to a non club:

http://barefoothoofcare.wordpress.com/

Informative article on club feet: http://www.barefoothooves.com/clubfeet.php

Before and after pics: http://www.strasserhoofcare.co.nz/casestudies/case011/case011.htm
http://www.abchoofcare.com/CaseStudies.htm
http://www.hoofrehab.com/club%20foot.htm


Can you post pics NBN? I sure hope you find the help you need for your boy.

What I ment by:
We put a lot of trust in our ferriers, our horses lives are in there hands.....is....

I'm not the one with the clippers and the rasp!!

Yes we should be edjucated in hoof care but, when it comes to Helping a club foot we need the help of a good ferrier that knows what they are doing....Because I am not a ferrier!!!!!If I need a vet for my horse...Yes I can do research but at the end of the day I am going to put my trust is my vet that they are doing the proper thing......Because I am not a vet...And I don't think the internet can teach me how to be one....

I'll also tell you why I think we do put a lot of trust in our ferriers...

Years ago I had a ferrier that I thought was doing a great job....anyway I decided to try another ferrier because he was very well respected and shod a lot of show horses, ect...Come to find out my horses angles were all off and he wondered how my horse could even travel properly....So we put on some degree pads until she grew her heels grew back enough to take them off....and got her angles correct on all 4 hooves.....Well let me tell you my horse went from a so so mover to a beautiful mover and our placing at shows shot up and stayed there....

How could I have let this happen???? Well my parents wern't horsey people and I was young and thought if I had a ferrier he would know how to properly shoe a horse...

I learned my lesson though and did ask a lot of question with the new ferrier, I am now a little scared from that experience though because I watch my horses hooves very carefully...Now being an adult I don't let anythig slip when it comes to his hooves...

We have all heard it before....NO HOOF NO HORSE....That is why there lives depend on a great ferrier..

I don't want to come off like a know it all...It is just hard to write your opinions on a computer!!!

I am going to go off my original topic right now.

I don't know about the rest of you but I've found pretty much every farrier I've had has had something negitive to say about the last one that touched my horses feet. I know that they probably all have their own style of trimming ect but why do they all need to bad mouth each other.

In my area we have a hard time getting farriers they all have to travel to where we are alot of them aren't taking new clients won't come out for just one horse ect so your kinda stuck with a limited amount of resources. and in my case I'm not around when my horse gets his feet done cause well i have to pay board for him by working lol. My farrier does a good job but I feel there is room to improve by the sounds of it I have some research to do and need to figure out how to nip this before it becomes an issue where Target is lame due to the wonky foot he has.

I'm going to take some pictures of his feet this weekend I"ll post them let me know what you think.
Thanks again for all the help I appreciate it.

Some more info..


Club foot


The more I read on the Club foot, the more it makes sense that it is usually an injury... OR, quite possibly pain at the back of the foot that starts the overgrowth of heel wall, then it fills in with sole material...

Either way... the problem that causes it, has to be addressed. To find the cause is your real challenge. The trimming of the foot is not the big deal. (But trimming without addressing the cause, will continually cycle the hoof back into a clubbed state..)

Gene says:

Quote :

Feet that do not have a predisposition to being clubbed, naturally upright or laminitic do not seem to grow an unusually thick live sole, for example a non-painful, flat thoroughbred foot. It is not until problems arise with pain involvement like pedal osteitis, laminitis or some other condition that creates discomfort to the foot in general or to the DDFT. Pain seems to be one of the key factors in the acceleration of heel growth and thickening of live sole in the caudal part of the foot. At the same time, controlling the pain or eliminating the pain in the foot seems to minimize or stop the production of live looking sole in the caudal part of the foot. Therefore, when the foot releases live sole by exfoliating tissue, the sole material at the heels becomes chalky and flaky. At that time, the heel of the foot is ready to be trimmed.

Basically, he is saying...a healthy landing foot, does not want to grow in a clubbed form... either the hoof hurts, or the Tendon is damaged or sore due to pain inflicted directly to it, or higher up in the body..(like his shoulder)..

The foot grows extra material at the back of the foot to either protect the back of the foot..(Simple thrush could get the process started) or to protect the tendon or again, the pain higher up.. This does not mean higher heels and pads are the answer... it is the opposite in fact...

He is saying...once the foot body feels better, the hoof will naturally try to exfoliate the excess sole material back down to where the live sole plane is... If given the means to do so. (Either by ground that is forgiving, but abrasive enough to get up in there and exfoliate.. or from the help of frequent trims...

He goes on to talk about the process of frequent trims... and to be careful not to overtrim, which could encourage the horse to fall back into the toe first landings to protect the overtrimmed sole, and again, continue the cycle of growing back clubby..
(I have witnessed this many times before..not on a clubby foot, but a contracted, high healed foot...)

Also to be careful in making sure the breakover is maintained.. Some schools of thought say you have to add length to the toe to encourage a different angle... however, that does more damage..

This all makes sense to me...
I doubt he will ever have perfect feet, but you may get them looking more alike... and if anything, increase his chances of a longer working/usuable career... as appose to him going down the path of getting worse...

Well....lots of info there.. Not much more then you already know probably, but at least you may be on the right track?

As for your farrier, maybe present him with some of the info you have found (if it is different from what he already knows...)...let him soak it in, mill it over in his brain, and the two of you can come up with a plan... Set some goals, and expectations of each other..., and if it doesn't work? Try another avenue... Together.
You need him to do his job, working on your horses feet, and he needs to to do your best in providing a good diet, movement, and protection from hard ground...


I'll keep reading... If I find anything else, I'll let you know...however, they all seem to be saying the same thing...treat the cause, the hoof shape will follow. :)

NBN I don't want to highjack your thread.... but having another clubby guy...

I read a couple of the links posted in a previous thread. In an ideal world we could know exactly how the club foot happened. In reality though it is a little tougher. I have spoken to the woman who brought him from AB as a weanling. He nearly died of starvation, which is what she figures caused the clubfoot. When you feel around the foot though there is a definite ridge of scar tissue just over the heel. The farrier I have now leans more towards that having been a contributing factor, but he also tends to think they are born with it...

I am lucky to have found a really good farrier and he explains everything he is doing and what he is working towards. To get him here I called everyone I knew with horses so when he comes he has a bunch to do. If I can convince my hubby to let me take the horses in his garage when he comes I will put a fire on and he can work in comfort lol. NBN have your tried running the file over his high side between trims to help keep it balanced? I am in the same situation though, the horse was fine and for some reason this last year has been getting worse. I know I had trouble getting a farrier before the one I have now and tried a couple different ones. One was a barefoot trimmer but was fairly new and was not comfortable working with the club foot so reccomended the guy I have now.

Good luck with him and please pass on any information you come across.

tango where are you located and do you mind me asking who you use for a farrier??

NBN I pm'd you, or at least I think I did

My daughter's horse has a club foot. I was there within a couple of hours of her birth so I know that she was NOT born with it. In fact it did not really show up until she was just over a year old and at that time I did believe that it was genetic (after all I had always been told that by farriers and vets).

I did some research and asked a lot of questions and it was suggested to me that it might be her shoulder. Sure enough when I actuall looked at her front on, with her mass of mane lifted out of the way her club side shoulder had little or no muscle development. We called in the horse chiro and within twenty four hours I had to trim that club foot so that she would not trip on it. Her range of motion had increased dramatically and she no longer need to grow an upright hoof to compensate for her lack of range of motion. That foot continues to improve - it has been a couple of years now. It will always be club - we did not start to treat her shoulder problem until she was about 3 years old but I sure wish that I had known to watch for a shoulder issue when I first noticed the club - we might had brought the foot completely back to normal.

I will state right here that my vet is great because she is so open minded. When I first suggested a shoulder injury she was skeptical - but I printed off the computer a lot of info from a very reputable source and gave it to her to read before she did the adjustment. When she examined her shoulder she was very surprised to see the difference in the development from one side to the other, and of course when she did the adjustment she could feel the problem with her hands. A couple of adjustments were all it took.

She is no longer a skeptic and she has now done tons of research on her own and has far surpassed what little I learned. This is the typed of vet, farrier, nutrionist etc etc etc that we need to find. This is what TC and HAH meant when they said that you should educate yourself about what is best for your horse. Then you take that knowledge and discuss it with the experts. They do not know it all - they can't possibly, and doing it one way because they have alway done it that way or because their father or grandfather did it that way or because that is what they were taught 20 years ago, is terribly unhealthy thinking. New research is being done daily, new discoveries are found daily and all of this research is ours for the reading and learning.

I had spoken to a equine massage therapist who does "rolfing" I think that was it, but did not follow up - the farrier I have was telling me about another case where the massage helped. So I am lucky that he is quite open minded. I think he was thinking there was a bit of difference in the shoulders when I asked him about it. Rolfing sounded quite involved. Now my question is what is the difference between an equine massage therapist, the rolfing, and a chiro? My guy has actually been limp free now for few days
:bigsmiley.png:

Munchmom, has your daughter's horse had any issues with the clubfoot? My guys is between a second and third degree and is quite noticeable.

Once I get Christmas over with, I will look into this a bit further. Hopefully have him fit and ready by spring.

She has no issues with the club foot and she has a barefoot trimmer out in Calgary. I have not seen the foot in person for over a year now but according to my daughter it becomes less noticeable with each trim. She will always have a club foot because we did not treat her for the problem causing the club until she was around 3 years old.

We did a combination of chiro and massage on Jazz. I did vet directed massage between chiro appts and then continued them for a couple of months. Chiropractic works on aligning the spine and loosening up the disks so that your spine can move freely, releasing pinched nerves etc. Massage is a great compliment to Chiro because it works on muscles and soft tissue. There is nothing more painful than a muscle spasm caused by a pinched nerve due to a frozen vertebrae - I know I have been there done that.

We now know (hindsight is 20/20) that she hit the electrobraid fence going at quite a speed when she was just a baby and bounced right off. We don't know if she hit the ground or hit the fence with her shoulder but she definitely locked her vertebrae right at the shoulder and that caused her lack of range of motion in that front foot and the hoof grew more upright to compensate.

She did not have a mark on her and she continued to behave like a typical baby and even now she wlks, trots and canters without any issue or lameness.

I don't know anything about rolfing although I have ralphed a couple of times when I drink too much wine .......

Well here are some pictures of Targets front feet. The pictures aren't that great because he wouldn't stand still for more then 3 seconds. The foot in question is the right front. the flair is to the outside of the hoof. Let me know what you guys think

I am slow getting back to this one..

A side shot would be great...however, I have seen pics posted of you riding him before..when I would guess he was not freshly trimmed and his heal/hoof looked like a block of wood...

From the front they look great! although, like you said, it's a fresh trim, so they are at their best...

Have seen worse cases posted on the net...that came around to pretty normal standards...

Bet he will come around if you can get his body dealt with...(if it is his shoulder...)
Which came first? The chicken or the egg? Or in this case, the hoof or the shoulder? Maybe the hoof had an issue and started to grow upright causing the shoulder to lose muscle? Or vice versa, either way, you probably can't fix one without addressing the other along with it...


I bet he will come around for you if you can provide all the requirements to do so... :)

TC until I started doing research into this I had no idea one could effect the other so I'm thinking you are correct. I'm going get him a massage and have a chiro person out after xmas (can't afford it right now).

His foot doesn't look like the typical clubbed foot as in it's not all that up right just misshapped.

Can you get a side pic and a sole shot? As TC said, these pics don't tell us a lot, but I also PM'd you about his club foot one other time you posted pics so I know there is room for improvement.

I know with body work and a regular trimming schedule your boy should improve. Where are you located NBN? Maybe someone in your local area gets a barefoot trimmer and you can share travel expenses?